You LRR me, so I CRR you back!

Spicymoose · #1 12-01-2005, 11:57 AM

UTG is unknown, but SB is 23/4/1.8 after 90 hands.

I never call reraise, but he made me want to, and I thought it was the perfect opportunity.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Thoughts?

#2 12-01-2005, 12:28 PM

Flush draw and a gutshot with 2 opponents is +Ev. Looks perfect to me. You can expect an UTG raise and you can rereaise for value, which you did. If it simply gets called through, that kind of sucks, but having 2 people come with when you're on a draw makes for better implied ods than raising immediately and only getting the SB to come along. I don't think you win without hitting your draw, so chasing UTG out at the flop doesn't really help.

ihardlyknowher · #3 12-01-2005, 01:11 PM

I would not 3-bet the flop because I want to keep UTG in the lead. If you hit your hand, you can then check-raise the field. The chance to get 2 extra BB with 95%+ equity is better than 2 extra SB with 56% equity IMO.

Spicymoose · #4 12-01-2005, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would not 3-bet the flop because I want to keep UTG in the lead. If you hit your hand, you can then check-raise the field. The chance to get 2 extra BB with 95%+ equity is better than 2 extra SB with 56% equity IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think the turn ever gets checked through? Also, if I do check raise the turn in a protected pot, UTG may fold, and I might not get his BB. Furthermore, this disguises my hand, so I may induce extra action.

I am not sure if it is correct, but I sure liked it, and hope it is [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

#5 12-01-2005, 03:05 PM

deleted

TheMetetron · #6 12-01-2005, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I think the flop equity is so large that you're giving up too much. The hero has 12 outs, he's a 1.2:1 favorite to win by the river. By 3-betting the flop he's getting in an extra BB, of which the hero nets .833 given his odds of winning.

So, 3 betting the flop = +.83BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this is flawed.

You are giving hero 83% equity, which he doesn't have.

#7 12-01-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, I think the flop equity is so large that you're giving up too much. The hero has 12 outs, he's a 1.2:1 favorite to win by the river. By 3-betting the flop he's getting in an extra BB, of which the hero nets .833 given his odds of winning.

So, 3 betting the flop = +.83BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this is flawed.

You are giving hero 83% equity, which he doesn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Argh, yea, 1/1.2 = 83%, but it should be 1/2.2 = 45%.

Flop bet is still better EV depend on how you see the odds of a check through or 4-flush hurting you, but it's much closer.

I suck so I deleted my post.

The Dude · #8 12-01-2005, 04:07 PM

This line was very rewarding since you hit on the turn. But if you miss are you firing on the turn and river still?

#9 12-01-2005, 04:20 PM

Taking a step back from the hand specifics, I was looking at SSH and it pretty much religiously says push the pot any time it's +EV to do so. Given the hero has 12 outs, pushing the flop is definiately +EV.

The only reason to give up the flop +EV is if you can get an even better +EV on the turn. SSH drills this in with examples of waiting until the turn, but in his cases the reason you wait isn't to make your hand, but to see if the turn is a blank and check/raise a made hand.

Examples are waiting until the turn in a big pot and top pair, but a flush draw on the board. Wait until the turn to push if it's a blank becaus your equity is so much better.

Our hero is in the reverse situation, most of the cards cripple the hero's equity because most don't make his hand. In this case the hero needs to push at the flop because that's where his equity advantage is. Yes, it's true if the hero makes the turn cards his equity goes way up, but not enough to sacrifice his equity on the flop.

If UTG was going to bet 100% of the time and the SB would always call, AND a river 4-flush won't give the pot way, then it becomes pretty close. Those are big assumptions though and whatever portion of the time those don't hold up severely diminishes the equity of waiting until the turn to check/raise.

Spicymoose · #10 12-01-2005, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This line was very rewarding since you hit on the turn. But if you miss are you firing on the turn and river still?

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. I have extremely little fold equity. I hope that UTG gets confused, or is drawing himself, and gives me a free card. If not, I have no problem calling with my close to 12 outs.