A stop-and-go hand that actually worked

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
just push it in pre, or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way pushing preflop is better than the line OP took. What advantage does push have over a stop and go??

I could see merits for a fold, but it's debateable.

I think the problem here is that Hero didn't have a big enough stack to effectively stop and go. Any reasonable Villain almost has to call at this point. Stop and go works better when you really have some FE and can at least give the Villain bad odds to make a hand if he whiffs on the flop. Here, even with the stop and go, the Villain is still getting 3:1.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem here is that Hero didn't have a big enough stack to effectively stop and go. Any reasonable Villain almost has to call at this point. Stop and go works better when you really have some FE and can at least give the Villain bad odds to make a hand if he whiffs on the flop. Here, even with the stop and go, the Villain is still getting 3:1.

[/ QUOTE ] did you happen to notice that the villian folded?

1 chip is enough to do a stop-and-go

Of course I noticed. I think most players wouldn't have folded in Villain's place. But I've seen this work, and there's no reason it can't. Wouldn't make a habit of it. It's very situational and read dependent. Given this situation, it might well have been your best option. I'll concede that you probably have a slightly better chance of getting Villain to fold with the stop and go than you would have with a straight preflop push...but I think that 90% of the time you commit to the hand by calling the preflop raise, you're not getting out of the hand without ending up all-in and called.

I'll try to guess at some hypothetical numbers, at work right now so I can't run anything really accurate.

Push preflop:
40% win if called (gain t4500)
5% chance Villain folds (gain t2400)
55% lose if called (eliminated)

Stop and go:
30% to win if called (gain t4500)
10% Villain folds (gain t2400)
60% lose if called (eliminated)

Maybe I'm underestimating the chance of the villain folding on the stop and go or overestimating the villain folding preflop. He'd have to be on a total steal with a trash hand to fold preflop. Which he might have been, given his fold on the flop.

Obviously the numbers are hypotheticals, maybe someone who has could do something more concrete, but that feels reasonable to me.

[UMTerp]

All I said was that a stop and go was better than a push preflop.

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
All I said was that a stop and go was better than a push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's MUCH better. With your push you have 0 fold equity, you will ALWAYS be called. If you stop n go, even if the villian calls you 99 times out of 100 (since hero is short, he WILL get called often by a reasonable player) you have gained. If you gain an ounce of fold equity with the stop n go, you have gained.

So what if this stop n go fails 99 times out of 100?? Maybe 9,999,999 times out of 10,000,000?? Even if so, you have still gained from the stop n go, even if the gain is slight.

By the fundamental theorum of poker, any time our opponent makes a mistake, you gain. Give your opponent that opportunity.

-Rizen

[KneeCo]

I'm with Rizen, once we've conceded that the Hero had 0 FE pf (which I think is clear in this case), this must be a fold or stop and go situation, we can debate which of those two it is, but I can't see how pushing pre-flop is better than the stop and go.

I can't think of one advantage of pushing pf over the stop and go, can anyone else?

If the villain was on a total steal with a trash hand (as he may have been in order to fold to this stop and go), why would he not have considered folding pre-flop? I think if he was willing to fold at this point, he may have been willing to fold preflop too.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if he was willing to fold at this point, he may have been willing to fold preflop too.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that this is wrong. Villain always calls. Even if he hates calling and having to show trash here, he still makes the call.

Well, to the same argument used against why the stop and go doesn't make sense, you're assuming a rational villain following reasonable strategy. That villain doesn't fold on the flop. It's a pretty narrow range of hands AND of villains who would consistently raise preflop and fold to the stop and go in this situation.

I guess I'm saying that if someone is willing to fold on this flop to this bet, then you aren't ALWAYS going to get called if you go all-in preflop against the same villain in the same situation.

If there's a margin of difference in who is willing to fold the flop to an all-in vs. fold the obvious stop and go, it's a thin one.