Flopping the stone nuts

[Cooker]

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Betting on this flop is retarded 7 handed. For 50c you may well fold out a lot of weak lows and flushes as well chances to catch straights, sets, boats, two pair, etc. This is a check/call flop, or check raise if it's a loose table and someone soon after you bets and gets heaps of callers. Get a nice big pot going so you can hammer the later streets and keep as many people as possible in the hand.

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Two pair or better and almost any low will call you down at these levels, but will never bet here. You are pissing away the flop bets, but aren't gaining any action that you wouldn't already get on later streets. 2 pair will call and pay off big when it fills up which is more money in the pot than when you let them catch the FH which they would have paid to draw to anyway. I think you grossly overestimate the typical party .5/1 player. I also think you suffer from slowplay-itis. You seem to think if you have a big hand you must slowplay, but you really only want to if you have a big hand in such a way that the deck is crippled and no one else can have much at all. That is just not the case here. There are plenty of hands that will call down, but never be able to bet aggressively, so charge them at every street. Of course, if you end up against a nut flush you will have a bingo and likely get every street capped no matter what you do, but there are plenty of payoff hands that you should extract value from on every street.

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Two pair or better and almost any low will call you down at these levels, but will never bet here. You are pissing away the flop bets, but aren't gaining any action that you wouldn't already get on later streets. 2 pair will call and pay off big when it fills up which is more money in the pot than when you let them catch the FH which they would have paid to draw to anyway. I think you grossly overestimate the typical party .5/1 player. I also think you suffer from slowplay-itis.

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It's a scary flop for any low or any high except the nut flush with low, so don't spook people by betting from EP. This is simple stuff. The more people seeing the turn the more likely someone will catch something. We're not talking about an AA3 flop when you hold A234 or a 345r flop when you hold A267. You don't slowplay those.

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IN the actual hand, I bet out & the whole field folded.

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Not to be results oriented, but...I WIN.

[Ribbo]

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Two pair or better and almost any low will call you down at these levels, but will never bet here. You are pissing away the flop bets, but aren't gaining any action that you wouldn't already get on later streets. 2 pair will call and pay off big when it fills up which is more money in the pot than when you let them catch the FH which they would have paid to draw to anyway. I think you grossly overestimate the typical party .5/1 player. I also think you suffer from slowplay-itis.

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It's a scary flop for any low or any high except the nut flush with low, so don't spook people by betting from EP. This is simple stuff. The more people seeing the turn the more likely someone will catch something. We're not talking about an AA3 flop when you hold A234 or a 345r flop when you hold A267. You don't slowplay those.

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IN the actual hand, I bet out & the whole field folded.

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Not to be results oriented, but...I WIN.

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Except you don't, if nobody has anything then of course they will fold, whether or not you bet the flop or check and bet the river. However you have to bet that flop, because it's the only way of getting lots of money in the pot if someone has A2 and a flush. The same applies for pot limit omaha/8, you must bet and hope someone has something.

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Except you don't, if nobody has anything then of course they will fold, whether or not you bet the flop or check and bet the river.

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Weak flushes, two pairs, and straights will fold to an EP bet on a flopped 3 flush 3 low; it's a scary board even for fish. In my experience people who will fold a flop will call a turn after the flop's been checked around, even if they don't hit. Plus, if you give 6 people a chance to hit a good hand or draw, they're going to hang around. As it is, the flop is very scary and most will fold to a bet.

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However you have to bet that flop, because it's the only way of getting lots of money in the pot if someone has A2 and a flush.

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If someone has A2 and a flush, you lose 1/2 - 2 BB out of them by not betting the flop, assuming all 6 players including the one with the A2 flush check it also. How much EV are you losing here? [censored] all. The chance to check raise multiple callers and trap money in the pot is also a big consideration here.

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The same applies for pot limit omaha/8, you must bet and hope someone has something.

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Pot limit is a different monkey, of course you bet it there, because you have to build a pot to get money in. This isn't the case here.

To give you an example of a stone nuts slowplay working, have a look at this (I rarely do this btw, but it's an excellent example of the principle at work):

$25 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Wednesday, November 09, 05:11:16 EDT 2005
Dealt to BadbeatPhil [ As 3s 7h Ad ]
VJT123 calls [$0.25].
Lridge folds.
starbuc48 folds.
sewith111 calls [$0.25].
buckatari folds.
maaspoort folds.
MtManVan folds.
sturgeon_nut folds.
BadbeatPhil calls [$0.15].
LeeLay checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, Ac, 3h ]
BadbeatPhil checks.
LeeLay checks.
VJT123 checks.
sewith111 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
BadbeatPhil bets [$0.75].
LeeLay folds.
VJT123 calls [$0.75].
sewith111 raises [$1.50].
BadbeatPhil calls [$0.75].
VJT123 calls [$0.75].
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
BadbeatPhil bets [$5.25].
VJT123 folds.
sewith111 raises [$10.50].
BadbeatPhil is all-In.
sewith111 is all-In.
sewith111 shows [ 5s, Jc, 5d, Jh ] a full house, Fives full of threes.
BadbeatPhil shows [ As, 3s, 7h, Ad ] a full house, Aces full of threes.
BadbeatPhil wins $0.65 from side pot #1 with a full house, Aces full of threes.
BadbeatPhil wins $47.70 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of threes.
There was no qualifying low hand.

The very small EV I lost by giving a low draw a free card (they were calling anyway, but I mean the EV if they called and didn't hit), I made up multiple times by someone catching one of four outs on the turn, and paying me off. He felt safe; I hadn't raised preflop, I hadn't bet the flop. If some one has A3 in this spot the money is going in anyway, because they're going to raise later streets for me. If they don't, a free card is precisely what you want to give.

With 7 players in the hand such turns are expected, not rare.

[jthegreat]

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Weak flushes, two pairs, and straights will fold to an EP bet on a flopped 3 flush 3 low

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Probably, but they'll fold to a MP bet as well. You aren't going to trap people who aren't going to call a bet at all. It's obviously a great flop for you, but not one that's going to generate a whole lot of action. I lost a good bit of money for a while trying to slow-play flopped monsters. It's not worth it in most cases.

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To give you an example of a stone nuts slowplay working, have a look at this (I rarely do this btw, but it's an excellent example of the principle at work):

Dealt to BadbeatPhil [ As 3s 7h Ad ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, Ac, 3h ]
BadbeatPhil checks.
LeeLay checks.
VJT123 checks.
sewith111 checks.

The very small EV I lost by giving a low draw a free card (they were calling anyway, but I mean the EV if they called and didn't hit), I made up multiple times by someone catching one of four outs on the turn, and paying me off.

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That's a horrid example for a hi/lo game, no? You gave a free card to low draws that if made are not likely to counterfeit. There were three opps left, you didn't expect one of them to have a low draw? You offered them half or your pot and didn't charge a nickle. You got quite lucky.

On the other hand, for the original question - I don't think a check with the intent of raising is a bad play from an early position, but I doubt any play would've worked well here if they all folded to a single small bet on the flop.

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That's a horrid example for a hi/lo game, no? You gave a free card to low draws that if made are not likely to counterfeit. There were three opps left, you didn't expect one of them to have a low draw? You offered them half or your pot and didn't charge a nickle. You got quite lucky.

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You can't just say "don't give free cards" without looking at the ev of doing so. Betting the flop is worth a couple of dimes more than not betting the flop here. But I give this up for even a 20-1 shot at someone catching a nice turn card where they'll pay me $5 or more by the river. The only way I make money on this hand vs low draws if they call flop and turn AND miss. Work out the percentages and you'll see the E.V. of betting the flop turns out to be quite insignificant. Keeping both in the hand and making them feel comfortable about their hand is worth far more imo.

[benwood]

Thanks a lot for the comments, guys. Greatly appreciated. After considerarion, I like the check slightly better because(1)I want to see where the action comes from. I want to raise in a "trap" position, not a "shutout" position at this point. (2)If no one has enough to bet(if I check) or call(if I bet),I would rather check & leave them in there to get some action later.l Thanks again.