$55's... I wrote the book on FPS

[bigt439]

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Your reasoning is all good, but you will be mis-playing against:

People who (especially having checked the flop) will only bet or call a bet with AK or PP if they hit.

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I think almost anyone puts in some cash with a PP if I check that flop. In fact I think it would be pretty damn weak to fold out second pair after the flop went check check, and party certainly isn't notorious for weak players in the first couple of levels.

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or

People who will call down some bets, and either wouldn't bluff or would only make a weak bluff.

or

flush draw.

But, you know all this.

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These are much more relevant IMO, but this is all relative to how often I think I'm up against these players and how much value I think I get when I'm not. Which is I guess part of this post.

[rybones]

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These are much more relevant IMO, but this is all relative to how often I think I'm up against these players and how much value I think I get when I'm not. Which is I guess part of this post.


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In my experience, you are often against A,Q; K,Q; or a flush draw in this situation. Hell at the 55s I still see donks who will raise and call a pf re-raise with Q,9 soooted. With this in mind, I think you needed to re-raise the turn. If villian was betting his draw you will not get paid off on the river when he misses. If he folded then you can see how the turn raise would have helped you. If called then my guess is he would have also called a turn push. Imo the turn was played incorrectly. This is just my thougt though.

So what happened, did he call? If so, what did he have? My guess is K,Q

Ryan

[bigt439]

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These are much more relevant IMO, but this is all relative to how often I think I'm up against these players and how much value I think I get when I'm not. Which is I guess part of this post.


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In my experience, you are often against A,Q; K,Q; or a flush draw in this situation. Hell at the 55s I still see donks who will raise and call a pf re-raise with Q,9 soooted. With this in mind, I think you needed to re-raise the turn. If villian was betting his draw you will not get paid off on the river when he misses. If he folded then you can see how the turn raise would have helped you. If called then my guess is he would have also called a turn push. Imo the turn was played incorrectly. This is just my thougt though.

So what happened, did he call? If so, what did he have? My guess is K,Q

Ryan

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Well this thread isn't generating a whole lot of discussion, which is too bad because I thought this was a very interesting hand. Anyways he called the river with 99. I think he has hands like this, and plays them like this way more than you guys think. Why wouldn't he lead second pair on the turn? The river call is bad, but so are the players in this game, that's why I like this line. Anyways this shouldn't kill the discussion, if anything it'll probably help it actually.

[rybones]

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I think he has hands like this, and plays them like this way more than you guys think.

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exactly my point when I said he might be playing Q,9 soooted.

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The river call is bad, but so are the players in this game, that's why I like this line.

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That's exactly why I hate this line. Yes, this idiot payed you off anyway, but what if he was playing the draw? or what if his 9 hit on the river. Calling that turn is fine with the nuts when you are sure the other guy has a big hand and will pay you off no matter what!!

Your line means one of two things: 1) some donks will fold and you will loose the extra t500 or so; or 2) you have just bet into the nuts as he caught his flush.

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Anyways this shouldn't kill the discussion.

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discussion implies that you respond to what others have said. yes you gave me the answer to what his hand was, but I still do not understand why calling the turn is a good choice. My rational for betting the turn might be wrong, but then tell -- discuss -- why it is wrong. What does calling gain you in chips that betting does not?

Ryan

[bigt439]

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I think he has hands like this, and plays them like this way more than you guys think.

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exactly my point when I said he might be playing Q,9 soooted.

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The river call is bad, but so are the players in this game, that's why I like this line.

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That's exactly why I hate this line. Yes, this idiot payed you off anyway, but what if he was playing the draw? or what if his 9 hit on the river. Calling that turn is fine with the nuts when you are sure the other guy has a big hand and will pay you off no matter what!!

Your line means one of two things: 1) some donks will fold and you will loose the extra t500 or so; or 2) you have just bet into the nuts as he caught his flush.

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Anyways this shouldn't kill the discussion.

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discussion implies that you respond to what others have said. yes you gave me the answer to what his hand was, but I still do not understand why calling the turn is a good choice. My rational for betting the turn might be wrong, but then tell -- discuss -- why it is wrong. What does calling gain you in chips that betting does not?

Ryan

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First of all, almost none of these donks have the patience to check the nuts on the river. I am ahead on the river like 95% of the time IMO. Maybe more.

I have also talked quite a bit about my turn call already. I think he's drawing just as slim as he was on the flop and I want him to put more money into the pot. Same logic throughout this whole hand.

And just to add to what you said about Q9s; that is very different than what I was saying. I actually think he has Q9s here like never. You have to keep in mind that he raised UTG+1... alot of these players are quite bad, few are ridiculous enough to raise Q9s UTG+1 and call a reraise... Mid-pairs do this alot IMO.

I also don't really agree that much with pooh about what he said regarding the flop. I actually really think you're talking on a great point, but I don't think it's applicable here. Lately I've been 3-betting the flop where I used to flat call and try and pump the turn because of the logic you were using, so I like what you're saying, but I don't think it applies to A-high type hands, or really mid-pair type hands. I think it's better with combo hands and draws.