Bellagio 10/20 hand

[Post-Oak]

Why is this guy looking to play such a big pot? If he does have AA or KK, I think he should have just called your fake blocking bet. The pot is already huge for 10/20.

Now that he has raised to 2500 straight, when you call the pot will be $7K. And you guys will have $6.5K left.

I don't know if he would raise here with AA or KK. And if he did, I think he is done with the hand if you even call and then lead river (unless you keep it relatively small). He may think you are trying to put a play on him again, but if you so much as call, he knows you have it.

Maybe he has AK and is trying to muscle you? I just don't understand his raise.

I would usually push, hoping he reraised you with something other than AK/KK/AA and has a legitimate hand. Other times I would call and then lead river for $3K.

I don't play this deepstacked, but I think these are both viable lines.



Edit to say "AK/AA/KK" which is what I meant, not AK/KK/QQ.

[mgsimpleton]

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hoping he reraised you with something other than AK/KK/AA and has a legitimate hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol?

oh about the hand. just um push, yeah that's about right. seems like your previous warring with each other will pay off...

but i would lead for way more than 500 on the turn if i had check called the flop, but i would not check call the flop, this made it sort of awkward for the money to get in. if you lead the flop, you will stack him every time he has AA/KK.

[Post-Oak]

Duck,

I really do mean that if he has AA or KK he is overplaying his hand (even more so with KK). Hero has shown strength. He raised in EP, he called a reraise, he check called the flop.

I don't mind Villain's raise on the turn as much if he has AK (nothing but a gutshot), but with KK it is pretty horrible. AA I wouldn't be looking to inflate the pot any further on this drawless board either.

So I mean that I hope villain has a set, which is the type of strength he is now representing. I of course don't disallow AA, I just think it is a foolish raise on his part in that spot if that is his holding. Because now he could be facing a pot sized all-in reraise, or a big value bet on the river. How could he fold for a $3K value bet on the river if he has AA? He can't.

He has to know that hero is not drawing, given the action and the board.

The pot is already 100 big blinds after the flop action. Why is villain looking to jam this pot??? He is trying to stack off against AQ or KK? Really he would just be opening himself up to getting stacked by a hand that beats a pair.

I think an overpair would generally call the $500 here. So this guy probably really blew it, but hopefully this is one of those rare set over set situations (cause you are assured of getting his whole stack). Maybe he turned it.

Anyway, most of the times I guess this will either be a badly played AA, or a bluff.

I just don't grasp why people don't understand (not talking about you) that a CALL can show strength. What does he put hero on given the preflop action and his check call on the flop? I mean come on, I would check that turn if checked to and especially just call if bet into. If hero has AQ - good - win a nice pot against his overplayed hand. No need for villain to reopen the betting and raise here with a mere pair.

[mgsimpleton]

i didn't say he played it well, i was just saying that AA and KK are very good. especially in live poker.

furthermore, check calling does not show strength. that is weak tight thinking. strength can be one interpretation but it is usually weakness.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't say he played it well, i was just saying that AA and KK are very good. especially in live poker.

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So if you raise in this spot with AA against a TAG, and get called (we won't even say reraised), you feel good about your hand???

Maybe I just need to play more live.

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furthermore, check calling does not show strength. that is weak tight thinking. strength can be one interpretation but it is usually weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the preflop action, a check-call here sends off alarm bells in my head. I don't read it as weakness, not at all.

At least I am still king of the weak tighties [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Can you say the name of the player (might help the hand analysis some). I think here I like a "johnny chan" (vs. negreanu) and min re-raise his raise of the turn. Essentially, this "committs" both of you to the hand, and makes it look very weakish to a hand like AA. Also, if he does smell a rat and flat calls the min-reraise, he can't lay down on the river. IMHO, it looks like is he trying to see a cheap showdown with AA/KK and will not put more money in the pot on river, thus your only chance is to raise here (unless he is a complete donkey which he does not appear to be). Also, it makes your river action much easier. Push on blank, check-call on scare scard. Also, for the slight possibility he has 1010, u will stack him.

[tewall]

[ QUOTE ]
furthermore, check calling does not show strength. that is weak tight thinking. strength can be one interpretation but it is usually weakness. [ QUOTE ]


Unless hero is an awful player, check-calling must show strength. With the given flop, he's not drawing. So given the action, what weak hand could he have?

[coltrane]

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if you lead the flop, you will stack him every time he has AA/KK.

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they have 450 BB's and villain is a good player....this isn't party poker.....




to OP,

he's obviously testing you on the turn, problem is that the pot is now big (you'll only have a pot-sized bet left) and you're out of position....an all-in protects the pot, but there's no way he's calling without three tens......I guess my question is, how likely is that? and also how likely is it that he's making this move with a drawing hand?.....if you think you're not sure, and that he could have three tens or some draw, the safe play is to just protect the pot and just stick it in on the turn....however, if you've got him squarely on AA/KK, I like maybe taking a chance and doing something goofy like mini-ish raising him back $2500 and then betting the rest on the river.....he might not go for that either, but I think it's got some shot....

[neon]

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if you lead the flop, you will stack him every time he has AA/KK.

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they have 450 BB's and villain is a good player....this isn't party poker.....

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree, and therefore threw all the standard stacking off 100BBs w/ a set vs. an overpair lines (lead/3-bet flop, check-call flop, CR turn) out the window.



[ QUOTE ]
an all-in protects the pot, but there's no way he's calling without three tens

[/ QUOTE ]

During the hand, I actually thought that there was some chance villain would call a turn push with AA, but now I'm not so sure . . .


[ QUOTE ]
if you've got him squarely on AA/KK, I like maybe taking a chance and doing something goofy like mini-ish raising him back $2500 and then betting the rest on the river.....he might not go for that either, but I think it's got some shot....

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I definitely considered doing something weird like this; the effective stacks make it really awkward to get the money in here (at least w/ the line I took, which I was rather fond of at the time, but I think may be slightly less than ideal). During the hand I struggled with the need to balance a few competing dynamics, namely, the degree to which villain thinks I'm full of [censored]/the frequency with which he'll look me up w/ one pair as a result, getting the most money in the pot, and the potential for scaring away all but three tens, either by betting too much and just blasting him out, or by making an all-too transparent value bet . . .

The problem I saw with this is that there's really little difference between min-reraising villain on the turn and just pushing over the top. I mean, what could he possibly expect to happen on the river other than for me to stick the rest in? I think I'd like this line a lot more if the effective stacks had been, say, another 100 BBs, or if I had assigned a higher likelihood to villain having an eight-out or even a four-out hand against me.

mmmmmm.....uh, i disagree here. i think that a check-raise on the flop is the best way to play this hand...i think if you lead, the villain might just call, and might wonder why you're leading at him.....IMO, if the villain does have what he's representing, i'd checkraise this flop....he bet 600, i'd raise to around 1400, and watch him push with AA or KK....


as the hand was played, i like a real long and drawn out push here on the turn....