Getting bet off top pair too much

[sean c]

Why did you check the flop in hand one? Were you sure the CO would bet if checked to and you planned on check/raising?
I would have bet.

In hand two i would have raised pre flop and as played i would have 3-bet the flop you have top pair and two nice backdoor draws. I think this is to much of a hand to be folding and cold calling may encourage people behind you to join in.

[crunchy1]

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reraise in both hands and find out where the hell you are at

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My standard reply: Raising for information sucks.

[flopmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reraise in both hands and find out where the hell you are at

[/ QUOTE ]
My standard reply: Raising for information sucks.

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I worded it incorrectly, but what I'm saying is I believe I have the best hand here but not positive so I would like to see the action after my reraise. If some1 comes alive or calls three cold its easy to release my hand or at least play cautiously. jeez crunch me and u are goin at it today [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[SeaEagle]

PF:
I especially don't like raising hand 1. AJo is not a good hand 6- or 7-way OOP. Hand 2 is very table dependent. With aggressive players behind you who will isolate a limp or only play for a raise with hands that dominate you, it's probably a fold. Based on this table it looks like a limp was correct. I only like a raise if I know I'll still get the pot at least 4 way.

Flop:
Hand 1 sure looks like a 3-bet. Button doesn't have a 4 because he wouldn't raise with one; he most likely has a J. CO probably doesn't have a 4 either. This also is a good place for a CC and a turn c/r. With such a dry board, a 3-bet won't fold anybody who wouldn't have already folded for 2 bets. You also give CO a chance to reraise if he's got a 4. And an aggressive player with a J isn't going to let the turn get checked around.

Hand 2: I would just fold. Your hand only has a moderate kicker. Your BDSD is two specific cards so it's only worth about 2/3 of an undiscounted out, and you have to discount both of your BD draws due to the risk of a FH. Also, since the bettors are from the blinds, there's a much better chance that one of them actually has an 8.

[brettbrettr]

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I raise both of these hands preflop.

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I do sometimes. But not in these spots.

[BigBiceps]

Hand 1: 3-bet the flop.

Hand 2: Fold

[Klak]

thanks guys. im glad im not the only one whos unsure of what to do on these. i prolly should have bet out on hand 1, but i was very sure that a bet was coming from late position and i wanted to go for a checkraise. hand 2 is debatable about calling preflop, especailly since this game was very aggressive with losts of PF raising.

hand 1 i never got to see, but hand 2 the raiser had q4 and i would have been good.

[SeaEagle]

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but hand 2 the raiser had q4 and i would have been good.


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That doesn't mean your fold was bad. Sometimes you'll lay down the best hand and kick yourself. Sometimes one of the 3 people left to act will 3-bet the flop and you'll pat yourself on the back. Heck, sometimes the flop will get capped, the turn will be the 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and get capped, and the river will be the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and you'll have missed out on a 30BB pot.

[ErrantNight]

i would raise preflop in hand 1. i'm not sure this is standard. i would probably limp along with ATo, so take that fwiw. yes, AJo does not play well against a large field, and i suppose if the bb is calling everything this gets ugly. but you likely have the best hand, there's a very good chance one of these limpers has a worse A. but anyway, moving on.

on this flop you can't really protect your hand. you don't know from where a bet will come, if there will be one, and lots of people will call with anything. the board is raggedy. bet for value. once it comes back to you... you're in a tough spot... but button could be raising a LOT here if he's thinking enough to try to protect his hand. given this board, the CO doesn't need to beat a J to bet this, and the button doesn't need one to raise. let alone a 4. 3-bet and work from there. you'll be offering the field 3:13 and anything but the goods should go away, or will be incorrect to continue.

hand 2: i'd raise preflop, but if the table is excessively loose... this is also close, and the limp is fine.

i'm less sure on this. you have backdoor flush and straight draws to help you out, and a reasonable shot at having the best hand, but the blinds being the aggressors means (a) they're more likely than usual to be holding an 8, and (b) you're more likely to get capped and/or bet aggressively into again on the turn, regardless of what falls. still, if you pick up a flush or straight draw on the turn, it seems better to have the possibility, even if it is remote, to take a free card if it's offered. additionally, if you just call, some of these loosies might start overcalling, and you're about ready to get them out.

given your read, i'm just not sure you can assume you're behind and fold. in fact, i really dislike a fold in both circumstances. passive players, sure, you could let it go. here.... not so much.

FWIW:

Odds that a XYY flop will give some opponent trip Ys, given that opponents play their hands randomly:

N_opp: % that someone has trips
1: 8
2: 16
3: 24
4: 31
5: 38
6: 45
7: 52

This is just a rough guide. People love bluffing at a paired flops, whereas trips love to slowplay. And, though I don't need to say it, people do not play randomly, so, this needs to be inflated/deflated denpnding on what Y is and the opponents.

Hand 1 : 44J

odds of YYY(5 opp) = 38%, hands of [4x] that will call in live 3/6: 10% .....
Any more math than this is silly, but it illustrates that you don't have to worry about 444 often, especially from the bettors. 3 betting will allow you to see who check-calls-3-cold then wakes up on the turn.

Forgive me.