Pascal's Wager - Page 2

Aytumious · #1 10-14-2005, 12:58 AM

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you made my point. i am speechless. this is what i mean: before we start 'debating' 1) what do we take pascal to mean by 'god'?. 2) what do we take pascal to mean by 'exist'. 3)what will we accept as an adequate definition of 'wagering'?............you may not think these are necessary questions to ask, but where subjects such as this are discussed by professional academics, and those in training, it can take many hours at the black board working out some agreement on the logics of these various terms................b

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And you provide a good example of why many professional academics are not taken seriously.

chezlaw · #2 10-14-2005, 06:29 AM

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you made my point. i am speechless. this is what i mean: before we start 'debating' 1) what do we take pascal to mean by 'god'?. 2) what do we take pascal to mean by 'exist'. 3)what will we accept as an adequate definition of 'wagering'?............you may not think these are necessary questions to ask, but where subjects such as this are discussed by professional academics, and those in training, it can take many hours at the black board working out some agreement on the logics of these various terms................b

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If you are studying Pascal then it may be important to worry about that stuff but we are assming the questioner is asking about the basic idea represented by the label 'pascals wager'.

and the basic idea is taking a bet with an infinite upside and finite downside. The refutation is clearly evident in the responses.

It seems obvious that the idea and refutation is independent of what Pascal meant by god etc.

chez

ZeeJustin · #3 10-14-2005, 09:23 PM

There are everal possible arguments.
1) The chance that god exists could be infinitesmal.
2) There is not necessarily an infinite upside to believing in god (this could be for several reasons. Perhaps you believe in the wrong god. Perhaps you won't necessarily get into heaven. Perhaps you worship the correct god and still go to hell anyway).

chezlaw · #4 10-14-2005, 10:37 PM

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There are everal possible arguments.
1) The chance that god exists could be infinitesmal.
2) There is not necessarily an infinite upside to believing in god (this could be for several reasons. Perhaps you believe in the wrong god. Perhaps you won't necessarily get into heaven. Perhaps you worship the correct god and still go to hell anyway).

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2) There is not necessarily an infinite upside to believing in god (this could be for several reasons. Perhaps you believe in the wrong god. Perhaps you won't necessarily get into heaven. Perhaps you worship the correct god and still go to hell anyway).

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As long as there's a chance of an infinite upside then there's an infinite upside.

(ignoring the possibilty of the chance being infinitesmal which is your other point).

chez

r3vbr · #5 10-15-2005, 05:18 AM

god can punish infinitly someone who believes in gods..

maybe god wants people to not think about god..
if someone mentions god/religion it makes him mad

maybe his divine plan for us is to see us develop our technology, or see how fast we can develop our logic/reasoning into understanding the universe
maybe he sees religious people as distractions to improving our technology (wich they are) and he will punish every one of them on eternal flame...

therefore everyone who every touched a bible goes to hell and everyone who's a egocentric, logical, rational, atheist, will recieve god's sympathy and approval, and be rewarded.

im not saying this is true, its one of the infinite possibilities of god. and just as likely as any other explanation

ZeeJustin · #6 10-18-2005, 03:26 PM

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As long as there's a chance of an infinite upside then there's an infinite upside.

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If there is a chance of an infinite downside (hell), this is not true.

chezlaw · #7 10-18-2005, 06:40 PM

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As long as there's a chance of an infinite upside then there's an infinite upside.

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If there is a chance of an infinite downside (hell), this is not true.

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The upside is what you can get when you win. If there's a non-infintesimal chance of winning an infinite amount then there a chance of winning an infinite amount. Hence the upside is infinite.

Maybe we mean something different by upside.

My first post was that the problem with the wager is there is also an infinite downside. i think this is the easiest refutation as argueing that there is an infintesimal chance of an infinite upside, that makes the upside finite, is tough.

chez

#8 10-14-2005, 09:38 PM

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Does anyone have arguments against Pascal's Wager?

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1) The upside may be finite. If God is real, there is no reason to believe that "heaven" exists, or if it does, that its "infinitely" +EV.

2) Plus, discarding reason during your lifetime in favor of theist myths may also be viewed as a real loss in that you only had one life -- just this one chance -- to use your brain to its fullest but you chose to fill it with silly beliefs.

3) There may be other mystical explanations in which your use of your faculties to their fullest will gain you reward but not using them will result in a worse state for your "soul".

bearly · #9 10-14-2005, 10:28 PM

gee, zee is implicitly suggesting we need a little more specificity concerning 'god'..........b

RJT · #10 10-17-2005, 10:03 AM

Kid,

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2) Plus, discarding reason during your lifetime in favor of theist myths may also be viewed as a real loss in that you only had one life -- just this one chance -- to use your brain to its fullest but you chose to fill it with silly beliefs.

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Please define what the opportunity cost is here?

RJT