When do you stop pushing AK?

[JonLines]

Wow you guys put a lot of thought into that.... I just insta-pushed, he only has 1955 left, i dont see the point of a re-raise in this situation or a flat call given I can win 950 uncontested if he folds, why extract the other. Is this really not an insta-push?! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Anyway... back to my original question, assuming it is an insta-push, how big would our stack have to be, with the same size blinds and raises, before you consider a call to play it from the flop?

Edit - By our I mean the Raisers (Villain) and mine (Hero's).

[KramerTM]

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how big would our stack have to be, with the same size blinds and raises, before you consider a call to play it from the flop?

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Both stacks have to be more than 10xBB deep (once the action gets to you) before I even consider additional chip extraction.

[JonLines]

Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

[KramerTM]

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Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

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So read dependent determining the exact threshhold.

That said, if Villain is likely to call with most PP here, then I'm more likely to see a flop to either a) hit it and extract chips b) use a c-bet to get him to fold.

Note: The trickier/better the player, the more I am willing to push PF. Also, if OOP, I am more willing to push PF. If neither of these cirumstances are true, and I have more than 18-20BBs, then I probably take a flop. Especially if Villain has shown willingness to fold to a c-bet.

[ZeroPointMachine]

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Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

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Another way to judge it is to look at how much you increase your stack by taking it down now. Any time I can increase my stack by 15% I am more than happy to push and take it down. In this case you are gaining 20%. That is too big of a chunk to get cute with. 10-15% is borderline. In this particular hand I would still push because villian's stack is not offering enough implied odds. If the combination of blinds and his raise were less than 500t I would consider a flat call or re-raise.

[KramerTM]

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[ QUOTE ]
Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

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Another way to judge it is to look at how much you increase your stack by taking it down now. Any time I can increase my stack by 15% I am more than happy to push and take it down. In this case you are gaining 20%. That is too big of a chunk to get cute with. 10-15% is borderline. In this particular hand I would still push because villian's stack is not offering enough implied odds. If the combination of blinds and his raise were less than 500t I would consider a flat call or re-raise.

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Another good point. This suggestion and my suggestion should usually reconcile.

[JonLines]

Cheers Zero, thats the sort of thing I wanted. 15% is probably the figure i work to as well, but i don't know why i do it! Is their any mathematical reason why you are doing this? Thanks.

[DonT77]

With AK in the SB or BB, I like to reraise at least 3x the villain's bet amount - which is the same amount that I would bet if I were on a resteal.

In this case the villain bet 600, so you're re-raise should be to around 1800; however, in most cases you won't want to raise more than 1/3 of your stack (or your opponent's stack) and then fold ATF - so both you and your opponent need to have at least 5400 chips in your stack to prevent you from getting pot-commmitted PF by raising 3x.

With anything less than 5400 chips (in your stack or his) your probably getting all of your chips in the middle; but, if you both had say 6000 or more chips you might be able to just raise 3x and play poker from there.

On second thought, even with 6000 chips a raise to 1800 represents 30% of your stack, so 6500-7000 is probably a better number. Anything below 7000 in your stack or his and I'm probably pushing.

From 7000-12000 chips you are in kind of a middle ground where if you raise 3x and then CB (continuation bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot) you are still committing a major portion of your chips to the pot - so I might be more inclined to flat call PF and play poker from there.

With 12000 or more chips you can re-raise to 1800 and then CB the flop if you want to without getting PC'd.