Razor Thin Value Bet?

[MagicRat]

Does no one cap this pre-flop?? Limp/re-raise with 3 people in might just be someone who's looking to gamble. Might that not also get you heads-up? With the pot building pre-flop that could be a good thing...

Oh well, villain probably had AA. Way to spot that and feel the ace coming on the turn, that way you got in as little money as possible. Maybe he'll fold his set on the river to that scary fourth club!

Seriously, wtf? The only "razor thin" part of this hand is whether to cap or not (I vote not.) Raise the flop. Or wait, and raise the turn. There is NOTHING on the turn that should stop you from raising it. If someone has the flush, oh well, more than 20 % of the deck gives you a winner. If not, you're charging the most to players with a single club. River is spewing, after your total lack of aggression on earlier streets.

Why aren't we capping pre-flop? Because UTG+2 limp-raised? This seems a bit weak to me. You can't give a limp-raiser credit for QQ or better 100% of the time.

[W. Deranged]

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Not every raise is for protection. You are raising the flop for VALUE.

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And I felt there was more value in waiting for the turn. If UTG+2 likes to limp-reraise with big pairs, then I love my chances of him 3-betting the turn with an overpair. Also, if he has AK or any of the limpers stick around with a draw, I make more money from them by waiting as well.

Scott

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I disagree. I think you will almost certainly get more value here by raising the flop. The main point is that the pot is multiway. Raising now faces opponents with two small bets; many opponents will make bad calls for two small bets that they wouldn't make for two big bets if you wait until the turn. Also, many scare cards could come on the turn that will hurt your value opportunities; if villain has an overpair like KK or QQ, then a J, [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], or A will often kill your action, and villain will likely not three-bet and may even make a tough fold.

The basic idea is that people will throw tons of chips around on the small bet streets. When you wait until the big bets streets, many opponents will drop out or tighten up, and you lose your ability to gain value. I think many people here wait until the turn with big monster hands way too often, not realizing that getting aggressive on the turn will often serve to slow everyone down and actually inhibit value creation.

[HajiShirazu]

I haven't played online full ring holdem (or serious holdem at all) in a while. Is it still right to assume that somebody who limp reraises and isn't 14/8 or something like that to be a clown?
Anyway I can understand a call on the flop, because the only hands that call for two bets on this flop but not bet it are right to do it anyway yet plenty of hands will call unprofitably for one. I still think, just from experience in these situations, that you end up winning bigger pots and more money on average when you just play it fast and raise the flop- people call two here with strange things and that's why online poker is still beatable- but I don't have any good evidence to support this.
Anyway when the club hits it is even more important to raise than if none had hit, which is the key concept that should be learned from this hand. The river bet is close, but you're heads-up with SB here, you can fold to a raise easy, and you win one bet even if you bet and he doesn't call since UTG+2 probably calls if SB folds. This is a lot different than "win 50% of the time you are called" and makes me lean toward a bet.

[TemetNosce]

Don't be convinced that UTG+2 has AA. He could have KK, QQ or worse.

Raise the flop for value here. You can't protect your hand, but that's ok. You have a powerhouse.

Raise the turn. If reraised you have 10 outs to fill up or make quad Jacks.

Check the river. You aren't likely to cause a hand with a lone Club to fold here.

[Borodog]

Not reraising pre-flop, not raising the flop, and not raising the turn, are all really, really, really, extra, super, totally bad.

You have no reads, so you really can't put the limp-reraiser on what he's supposed to have (AA). Betting and raising with top set isn't designed for protection. It's designed for value.

I'm not sure what to think of the river bet after they checked. There's no way a club folds. I take it you lost to a flush that got made on the turn, but the river duped their crappy flush?