AA: SSHE pg. 163

[Aviston]

As I stated earlier, I really don't think I have a chance to fold anyone out of this hand. However, giving them incorrect immediate pot odds seems better than giving them odds to call with pretty much anything. I'm really unsure as to whether giving up a value cap on the flop is worth it in this situation.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
As I stated earlier, I really don't think I have a chance to fold anyone out of this hand. However, giving them incorrect immediate pot odds seems better than giving them odds to call with pretty much anything. I'm really unsure as to whether giving up a value cap on the flop is worth it in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]


If they are going to call with a gutshot getting 10.5-1, they will call getting 9.5-1. Do you know why?

Because they will look at the pot that says $14999999 and say, all I need is a X and I win all that. They will call.

That being said, I'd just go ahead and cap, and get as much as you can now. The turn might get bet and raised without your help anyway.

[Aviston]

I would post the rest of the hand, because it's absolute comedy, but I feel I've been ridiculed enough for one day on this forum.

Firstly, I cap the flop just to see where I am on the turn, as someone already stated. If there is excessive action on the turn before it gets to you, I would think you can muck the hand.

Secondly, where are you being ridiculed? All I see are people giving honest replies...

[benwood]

I'm not particularly worried about the odds that they are getting at this point, myself. But , like you, I would rather not cap the flop. They may cap it anyway, without my help. But whether it's capped now or not , I will still get more momey in there by encouring them to lead the turn so that I can pop them again.

[Aviston]

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, where are you being ridiculed? All I see are people giving honest replies...

[/ QUOTE ]
It was merely a joke considering for the most part, both of my posted plays were thought to be incorrect by the majority. Everyone's replies were much appreciated.

[ QUOTE ]
As I stated earlier, I really don't think I have a chance to fold anyone out of this hand. However, giving them incorrect immediate pot odds seems better than giving them odds to call with pretty much anything. I'm really unsure as to whether giving up a value cap on the flop is worth it in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think protecting your hand can be a consideration, but should not always be the overriding one. As Ed Miller has posted, waiting for the turn accomplishes more than just giving people incorrect odds to fold. It builds a bigger pot from players that are going to the river, and it can sometimes get someone to FOLD incorrectly b/c they think you have a monster hand like a set and will incorrectly fold one pair hands that have odds to continue.

I don't think we should be raising the turn here for several reasons. 1) Due to the heavy flop action we are quite possibly behind. By capping the flop we more clearly define our hand and it makes the turn and river easier to play. I don't really want to put two bets in on the turn if I am drawing dead. 2) You have to think what type of hands you are giving incorrect odds to. UTG does not have an inside str8 draw based on the action. So he's either ahead of you or drawing slim as it is. Maybe BB does, but taht is doubtful and I'm not going to go out of my way to give him incorrect odds on the off chance he does.

Overall, it all comes down to value. By offering someone incorrect odds to call, you either gain a fraction of the pot when they fold, or a fraction of their bet if they call. So I think obsessing about knocking out inside draw alone is pretty stupid. We're talking about fractions of a BB probably. So I think the combination of value from a flop raise if we're ahead, along with saving us bets as it makes the hand easier to play on the turn and river make this a flop raise.

For big overpair hands like KK,waiting for the turn to raise I think in general is good for a combination of reasons that reasons Ed Miller mentioned that I noted above. For hands like TT or JJ, I think waiting for the turn can be much more important as they are more vulerable to weak draws.

[benwood]

Tehox, You've got a lot good info. in your post & I have studied it carefully, but I may still be misunderstanding some stuff. I'm not sure if capping the flop really defines the hand better. A player in this position who's on a draw could easily cap to try for a free card if he misses, so it seems that the other players will still be in the dark as to what you have. Suppose after your cap, a blank comes & they check to you. Are you going to bet what you think could easily be the best hand? You don't want the betting to go the same way on the turn that it went on the flop, do you? I'm not saying this to be argumentitive. I just don.t understand how capping the flop makes the turn play easier. Help! Thanks.

[benwood]

I meant to say worst hand, not the best. Correction.

DerekNYC's post explains what I meant really well.