Altering txaq007's Question For Christians.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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As a side note, the inconsistancy I see is that it seems like all the enemies of God are killed at the end of Ch. 19, but then new armies are raised up in the middle of Ch. 20 (yes you are correct, revelation). Who else is there to deceive? I don't know.

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19 ends the tribulation period (world, people), 20 begins Christ's reign on earth with the martyrs.

Whether the followers will reproduce amongst themselves for that 1000 years requires further study, but the fact that they 'avoid a second death' implies they won't be tempted to join Gog and Magog when Satan is freed to form the last rebellion.

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Clearly if it was a Jewish temple, it would no longer be to God, because post-cross after the jews rejected the Messaiah, their faith was then in a false God (and I don't know about precross how that works out).

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It is Solomon's temple, it has twice stood where the Dome of Rock sits now which prevents it from being rebuilt.

I don't believe the Jewish faith is in a false God because one of the reasons Christianity says Old Testament and New Testament appears to be God's new covenant with mankind through Christ and grace which replaces the old which was founded on Law. (Same God, old "contract" if you will)

Cheers,
SDM

[scalf]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]..however; in a sense; in a less dramatic fashion; that is why people leave christianity; or some other faith; and strike out on the journey toward the godhead on another path..

put another way; we do not nessecarily need a "voice from heaven" ; that everyone agrees happened; <which i say could be faked> ; we only need go to that "temple within" ; that still is a part of the copts, and other true christian sects; as christianity was taken over by power merchants about 230 a.d.

i got a little carried away there, but to me; when ya know; ya know. we exist on faith; and faith alone, not on probabilities.

so, you see; most people do not need "voice from heaven" which is universally agreed upon to have happened. most people go by their own personal insights...

so my question to sklansky is: why is this yearning for a better understanding of god and spiritual matters such a universal thing; so much so; that it becomes an important part of a poker website.

my answer is : that is why we are here; to gain spiritual understanding; which can only be learned in the physical plane...

gl

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[scalf]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] that; and demand to buy wholesale and sell retail; always..

lol

gl

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[bluesbassman]

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Txaq007 asked non believers if they would become Christians if they could somehow be shown the resurrection really happened. Some said "no", which I believe is the wrong answer.

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I am among those who gave a "wrong" answer. It really depends on the definition of a "Christian." I said no because even if I accepted the truth of the resurrection, I wouldn't necessarily worship "God" or accept Christ as my savior, which implies by at least some definition I am still not a Christian. For example, I accept that Karl Marx existed and that he authored The Communist Manifesto, but that doesn't imply I'm a Marxist.

If by "become a Christian" you merely mean someone who accepts that the resurrection of Christ did in fact occur, then my answer is yes, since the question itself in that case becomes trivial and the answer is affirmative by definition. I assumed the author of the question intended to ask the non-trivial interpretation.

[udontknowmickey]

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I don't believe the Jewish faith is in a false God because one of the reasons Christianity says Old Testament and New Testament appears to be God's new covenant with mankind through Christ and grace which replaces the old which was founded on Law. (Same God, old "contract" if you will)


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Well, there is where we must part ways. I view history as salvation is always by grace alone, through faith alone in christ alone. To me in the OT people were saved by a faith in a future messaiah, a sin bearer (Christ). (Romans 4:6-8, heh, basically the whole of Romans is pointing out that salvation is by faith alone, it lists Abraham, quotes Psalms, quotes Habbakkuk). If one were to reject Jesus Christ as fulfilling that prophecy, then one's faith is no longer in Christ alone.

[David Sklansky]

"so my question to sklansky is: why is this yearning for a better understanding of god and spiritual matters such a universal thing; so much so; that it becomes an important part of a poker website."

No such yearning. If a lot of pretty smart people were believing in, and trying to make logical cases for levitation, there would be a levitation forum instead.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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I don't believe the Jewish faith is in a false God because one of the reasons Christianity says Old Testament and New Testament appears to be God's new covenant with mankind through Christ and grace which replaces the old which was founded on Law. (Same God, old "contract" if you will)


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Well, there is where we must part ways. I view history as salvation is always by grace alone, through faith alone in christ alone. To me in the OT people were saved by a faith in a future messaiah, a sin bearer (Christ). (Romans 4:6-8, heh, basically the whole of Romans is pointing out that salvation is by faith alone, it lists Abraham, quotes Psalms, quotes Habbakkuk). If one were to reject Jesus Christ as fulfilling that prophecy, then one's faith is no longer in Christ alone.

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So to clarify:

You believe that when God was establishing the Jewish people, starting with Abraham leaving Ur etc, that God planned on Christ always coming, but before he sent him the Jews that lived were saved, but once he came, the Jews that rejected lost the 'grace' that was in pre-christ salvation?

Cheers,
SDM

[udontknowmickey]

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So to clarify:

You believe that when God was establishing the Jewish people, starting with Abraham leaving Ur etc, that God planned on Christ always coming, but before he sent him the Jews that lived were saved, but once he came, the Jews that rejected lost the 'grace' that was in pre-christ salvation?


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I believe that God had (planned to) crucified Christ from before time began. Thus those of Israel that were saved had faith in Jesus as a comming sin bearer who would take their sins. Jesus' coming didn't change whether or not people were saved or not, merely changed the name that was given to the person by which they were saved.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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So to clarify:

You believe that when God was establishing the Jewish people, starting with Abraham leaving Ur etc, that God planned on Christ always coming, but before he sent him the Jews that lived were saved, but once he came, the Jews that rejected lost the 'grace' that was in pre-christ salvation?


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I believe that God had (planned to) crucified Christ from before time began.

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Ok I understand this view but require clarification on the next part.

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Thus those of Israel that were saved had faith in Jesus as a comming sin bearer who would take their sins.

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You mean any Jew pre-Christ-on-earth that believed a Messiah would come?

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Jesus' coming didn't change whether or not people were saved or not, merely changed the name that was given to the person by which they were saved.

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I'm just trying to 'pinpoint' within your view, the time Jews lost their grace.

Did it happen when Christ began his ministry or at the crucifixion, or after the resurrection etc?

Cheers,
SDM

[purnell]

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I view history as salvation is always by grace alone, through faith alone in christ alone.

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Umm.. What?

This argument will end when the religious types simply assert that their faith is not logical, that it is something that transcends logic. There is no need to prove that your faith (or any faith) is logically correct. You have faith, you "know in your heart" that your faith is good, and it makes you feel good. Isn't that enough?

It doesn't take much of a thinker to conclude that religion is illogical. So what? It has historically kept the great masses of non-thinking people in line. Isn't that enough?