What You Protestants Don't Seem to Get

[baggins]

"When you profess faith in any belief system, whether religious, mathematical or scientific, you start out with certain premises or axioms which by definition cannot be proved to certainty, but the evidence for same is enough for you, espcially if you believe you possess personal evidence that tips the scales"

i don't profess faith in any belief systems. I have given my heart and my life based on my Faith in the Living God. there is a difference.

If you believe in me as a teacher and a leader, and you trust me, then it doesn't matter that other people interpret my teaching and leadership methods in varous, and often conflicting ways. what matters is that your faith rests in me, and that you follow me.

the same goes for my Faith in God. I learn from the preachers in my church, and others I discuss my faith with. I learn from Catholic and Baptist and Lutheran and Covenant and non-denominational teaching. I don't believe any of them have a stranglehold on Truth. but, I don't believe that is the point, either. I believe the point is to live our lives as fully devoted followers of Christ, and to live by the 2 simple commandments that He emphasized: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, and your strength. and Love your neighbor as yourself. if you can follow those 2 things, you don't have to worry about commandments and special purification laws and whether or not you baptize your child as an infant or whether its ok to pray to Mary or sell indulgences or speak in tongues. I think the biggest weapon in Satan's very real and very potent attack on the Body of Christ (the church, ALL who believe in Him) is that of getting people mixed up and fighting over theology and politics. it takes the focus squarely away from the main point, which is to love Jesus and serve other people (through meeting their needs and leading them back to God).

we can argue about which doctrines are better, and the truth and historicity of those doctrines, and the political ramifications, but we'd be missing the point.

i hope that makes sense. at least enough for you to see where i am coming from.

[BluffTHIS!]

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I don't believe any of them have a stranglehold on Truth. but, I don't believe that is the point, either.

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Actually that is the point baggins. Because such a belief, i.e. that no denomination possess 100% of the truth has certain logical implications. Mainly for carrying out the great commission of evangelizing. Reread my posts above and see if you get it.

[baggins]

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I don't believe any of them have a stranglehold on Truth. but, I don't believe that is the point, either.

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Actually that is the point baggins. Because such a belief, i.e. that no denomination possess 100% of the truth has certain logical implications. Mainly for carrying out the great commission of evangelizing. Reread my posts above and see if you get it.

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no. it's not. Jesus commanded us to go out and baptize people of all nations in the name of Christ. not in the name of the Catholic church, or the baptist church, or the eastern orthodox church, or the Church of England, or any other denomination.

the point is not any one denomination having a stranglehold on Truth. the point is that we know enough to go out and serve and carry out Christ's mission for the church.

(now, if we are talking about Catholic church meaning a universal church, and not the Holy Roman Catholic Church following Papal orders and decrees and bishops and dioceses, then we may be closer to agreeing than you might think.)

there are many kinds of Truth. we are not called to sit around and ponder intellectual truths all day (at least not solely). we are called to live the Truth of the good news of Jesus Christ, and to love other people as He loves us. I'm talking truth in action. bold, relentless, active truth. not just logical imperatives regarding the minutiae of archaic theological sticking points for ivory tower academics (or even thinking lay people).

do you have to be a bible scholar or a master theologian to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, or comfort the hurting people in this world?

[BluffTHIS!]

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do you have to be a bible scholar or a master theologian to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, or comfort the hurting people in this world?

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Not at all. But you do have to be able to see the logical implications that certain beliefs have in regards to being successful in persuading non-believers to accept the gospel. You really need to reread my original and following posts. Since I know you believe that God expects you to share the faith, then you should also believe that He expects you to try to do it in a way that has the greatest chances for getting non-believers to accept it. Same as maximizing your EV in poker.

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Not at all. But you do have to be able to see the logical implications that certain beliefs have in regards to being successful in persuading non-believers to accept the gospel.

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God's things, spiritual things, are transmitted from spirit to spirit. Man is a three-fold being: body, soul, and spirit. When God imparts something to us, He imparts it into our spirits. When we receive that and impart it to others we impart it to their spirits.

The logical mind is part of a man's soul. The unregenerate man has only his soul to guide him. His carnal, selfish, fleshly soul has had years and years to pull him away from the things of God and set him on paths of folly. You don't try to convince someone from mind to mind. The gospel is not to be accepted and received logically.

The currency of every cult from the JW's to the Moonies to the RCC is a twisting of logic to enprison its adherents, a system of thought that builds upon itself brick by brick so that the high walls no longer let Light in, leaving man in a cave of darkness.

[NotReady]

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The currency of every cult from the JW's to the Moonies to the RCC is a twisting of logic to enprison its adherents, a system of thought that builds upon itself brick by brick so that the high walls no longer let Light in, leaving man in a cave of darkness.

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This is an excellent point. Many if not all heresies are the result of applying "logic" to some doctrine of Scripture.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that the logic of a finite, imperfect creature is likely to be finite and imperfect. It's only logical to believe that. Our sight isn't perfect. Our hearing isn't perfect. Our emotions aren't perfect. Our strength isn't perfect. Our will isn't perfect. But our logic is?

To deny the perfection of humanity's ability to reason isn't to deny the ultimate validty of perfect reason (which belongs to God) or the usefulness of reason so far as we are able any more than to deny we can see perfectly is to deny the sight we do have is useful and accurate as far as it goes.

Because we can't reason it all out perfectly God communicates to us. So we naturally then take His communication and subject it to the test of human reason. Why does He put up with us?

[BluffTHIS!]

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The currency of every cult from the JW's to the Moonies to the RCC is a twisting of logic to enprison its adherents, a system of thought that builds upon itself brick by brick so that the high walls no longer let Light in, leaving man in a cave of darkness.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point. Many if not all heresies are the result of applying "logic" to some doctrine of Scripture.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that the logic of a finite, imperfect creature is likely to be finite and imperfect. It's only logical to believe that. Our sight isn't perfect. Our hearing isn't perfect. Our emotions aren't perfect. Our strength isn't perfect. Our will isn't perfect. But our logic is?

To deny the perfection of humanity's ability to reason isn't to deny the ultimate validty of perfect reason (which belongs to God) or the usefulness of reason so far as we are able any more than to deny we can see perfectly is to deny the sight we do have is useful and accurate as far as it goes.

Because we can't reason it all out perfectly God communicates to us. So we naturally then take His communication and subject it to the test of human reason. Why does He put up with us?

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He was talking in his post about "twisted" logic, which isn't true logic. And as I said before, logic is a branch of mathematics and knowledge. And it isn't just human logic, but LOGIC. Just like mathematics in general. God made mathematics and logic, and if you hold a set of beliefs that is logically contradictory to itself in some ways, then that indicates those beliefs to be less than 100% true, and thus not fully reflective of God's truth. And heresies have not sprung from misapplied logic, but from a literalist out-of-context interpretation of various passages in scripture, which shows not only the fallacy of such methods of interpretation, but the consequences of not having an authoritative interpreter.

The height of such illogic is what I said in another post about maintaining that the reformation changed catholic doctrine which was in error, but that the new doctrines aren't 100% correct either, and that you expect non-believers to buy that new set of doctrines.

[David Sklansky]

"I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that the logic of a finite, imperfect creature is likely to be finite and imperfect. It's only logical to believe that. Our sight isn't perfect. Our hearing isn't perfect. Our emotions aren't perfect. Our strength isn't perfect. Our will isn't perfect. But our logic is?"

Is our arithmetic?

[baggins]

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do you have to be a bible scholar or a master theologian to feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, or comfort the hurting people in this world?

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Not at all. But you do have to be able to see the logical implications that certain beliefs have in regards to being successful in persuading non-believers to accept the gospel. You really need to reread my original and following posts. Since I know you believe that God expects you to share the faith, then you should also believe that He expects you to try to do it in a way that has the greatest chances for getting non-believers to accept it. Same as maximizing your EV in poker.

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I still pretty much disagree with you. I mean, I'm sure He wants me to share my faith in a way that is not ostracizing or insulting or hurting to other people. beyond that, I believe that the Holy Spirit intervenes at some point and takes hold of a person's heart and transforms it. now, I don't have a problem discussing theology. nor do i think that it doesn't matter how we present the gospel of Christ to people. but, at the same time, it's not MY job to convince anyone. my job is to "feed the hungry, take care of the sick and poor, and comfort the hurting people in this world." the Spirit that God gave us to guide us will do the rest.

[BluffTHIS!]

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but, at the same time, it's not MY job to convince anyone.

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"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Matt. 28:19-20

So it is YOUR job after all. And if you try to convince them to take the gospel on faith, but also that the beliefs of the particular denomination you belong to are not 100% correct, then your chances for success are lessened, which is the point of my original post in this thread.