Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[Ed Miller]

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not at all. i am responding to ed's comments about the value of certain suited hands. i think you need to read clearly or i need to write better.

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This advice pertains only to LIMIT hold 'em.

Here is my point. AKs-AJs and KQs should be raised in an unraised pot virtually every time. The only reason to limp would be to go for a limp-reraise. This is in $2-$4 or $200-$400.

ATs and KJs should be raised in an unraised pot in MP, LP, or the blinds virtually every time. In EP a case could be made for limping, but raising is usually a good play as well. This is true for $2-$4 or $200-$400.

QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot.

If you strongly disagree with any of these three statements, I really can't come to any other conclusion other than that you are mistaken.

[amulet]

i completely agree with the 1st 2 paragraphs of what you wrote. however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents. in fact i often fold A9s and A8s unless there are a lot of limpers because i will often be dominated. thank you for the reply.

[Noo Yawk]

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i completely agree with the 1st 2 paragraphs of what you wrote. however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents. in fact i often fold A9s and A8s unless there are a lot of limpers because i will often be dominated. thank you for the reply.

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I don't know too many tough opponents that play higher stakes games that do a ton of limping. Your worrying too much about being dominated and not enough on the relative value of your hand. Tough opponents will slaughter you at higher stakes if your raising standards are as narrow as they seem.

In late position with an unraised pot, you have easy raises with all the hands mentioned and more.

[amulet]

of course. however, i thought we were talking about vs several limpers. and most of this discussion was about lower limit multiway pots.

in the larger games, there are usually only 2 or 3 people in a pot, and almost every pot is raised. totally different.

[Noo Yawk]

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of course. however, i thought we were talking about vs several limpers. and most of this discussion was about lower limit multiway pots.

in the larger games, there are usually only 2 or 3 people in a pot, and almost every pot is raised. totally different.

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"however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents."

This was your response to Ed. Note the part about "An Unraised pot." We are talking about position, unraised pots and equity. All of the hands mentioned should be frequently raised reguardless of stakes. I'd even raise quite a few other hands.

[amulet]

i don't know how to do the box. your post said:
"however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents.

This was your response to Ed. Note the part about "An Unraised pot." We are talking about position, unraised pots and equity. All of the hands mentioned should be frequently raised reguardless of stakes. I'd even raise quite a few other hands. "

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i disagree with raising with A9s and A8s vs a limper or two. you are too easily dominated. as for QJs, and KTs, i would limp in late position vs one or two limpers who are good players not raise. however, if there are 3 or 4 limpers then i see real value in raising with QJs, KTs, they will win some big pots and clearly have positive expectation.

all of this is of course game, player, and opponent(s) specific.

However, as i if as i stated earlier to ed, a player must have the ability to hit top pair fair kicker and get away when necessary. QJs and KTs will win enough big pots for those that can get away from them when they are beat. but for the typical player i am not certain. i think it takes a level of advanced understand that many low limit players do not yet posses.

as for your statement "We are talking about position, unraised pots and equity. All of the hands mentioned should be frequently raised regardless of stakes. I'd even raise quite a few other hands." i do not believe you have positive equity with A8s, A9s, maybe even KTs, QJs vs one or two early limpers who play very well, unless you are a strong player who can play aggressively and use your position well. vs only one or two strong opponents limping from earlier position, they probably have stronger hands then you have. again that changes with 3 or 4 limpers and weaker players who limp with weak hands. game dependent.

i believe that if you raise with all these hands in games with strong opponents you will have a negative expectation. you make your straight or flush less then 11% of the time IF you see the river. you flop two pair or about better 1 in 28. these are mediocre hands unless you are in a multiway pot, or unless your opponents are weak. again, they are not raising hands vs a few strong limpers. game dependent.

this reminds me of the AQ if it is raises ahead of you debate, or even the KQ utg debate.

[Ed Miller]

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However, as i if as i stated earlier to ed, a player must have the ability to hit top pair fair kicker and get away when necessary. QJs and KTs will win enough big pots for those that can get away from them when they are beat. but for the typical player i am not certain. i think it takes a level of advanced understand that many low limit players do not yet posses.

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There is much in your post I disagree with, amulet. But I have time only to respond to this statement. I address this idea in GSIH, and I'll address it again here:

Let's presume that "getting away from top pair when it's beaten" is an important poker skill. Let's further presume that beginning players aren't as good at it as expert ones.

Those two presumptions should lead you to the conclusion that beginners should be MORE inclined to raise with hands like QJs and KTs, not less so.

The ability to fold when beaten is a more important skill in small pots than big ones. By raising, you make the pot big, and therefore you lessen the negative impact of being unable to "get away from a weak top pair."

In general, beginners should raise MORE HANDS, not FEWER HANDS than experts.

[amulet]

interesting. it certainly makes their post flop play often correct. i am not sure i agree but i understand it.

and i loved ssh, thought it was brilliant. and for loose games i agree with all you have said.

[Jaquen H'gar]

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Let's presume that "getting away from top pair when it's beaten" is an important poker skill. Let's further presume that beginning players aren't as good at it as expert ones.

Those two presumptions should lead you to the conclusion that beginners should be MORE inclined to raise with hands like QJs and KTs, not less so.

The ability to fold when beaten is a more important skill in small pots than big ones. By raising, you make the pot big, and therefore you lessen the negative impact of being unable to "get away from a weak top pair."

In general, beginners should raise MORE HANDS, not FEWER HANDS than experts.

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Good insight. I knew there was a reason I loved your book. Keep up the good work (i.e. dispensing your poker wisdom to me!)

[Jaquen H'gar]

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...as for QJs, and KTs, i would limp in late position vs one or two limpers who are good players not raise...
vs only one or two strong opponents limping from earlier position, they probably have stronger hands then you have...


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What stronger hands are these strong players limping with?