More Propaganda

[Cyrus]

"Palestinians (and Arabs in general) tend to hold far more racist attitudes than do Israelis."

For the last decades or so, yes. The roots of their racism (rather of their deep-seated hatred) is Israel coming on to the Middle East and taking away from the Palestinians the land they occupied for quite a large number of centuries. But before the 20th century, I challenge you to show me in the Middle East any anti-semitism remotely approaching the intensity of anti-semitism exhibited by Catholic and Orthodox (Russian) Christians against Jews, for the last two millenia.

"Israel shows relative restraint while holding the power, even while under perpetual attack."

Wiping out militarily all of the Palestinians, armed and civilian alike, is not (shall we say) politically expedient? As things stand?

Not for lack of trying though.

"Israel represents just slightly over 1/1,000 of the total Arab land mass. But to the Arabs, it's a big, big deal."

Again this "argument"... I remember Netanyahu on CNN ten years ago using his thumb to demonstrate on the map "how small" Israel is, compared to "the Arab land".

(What is this supposed to mean, anyway? Is this a schoolyard playing cards trade? A horse trade?? Jeez. Don't worry about the World Trade Center, it was only 1/1000th of New York "land mass"??)

[Cyrus]

Sure it's an out-and-out racist law. The kind of law that would have us up in arms if it came from anywhere else in the western world.

And that's the point. The Arab countries are backwards and undemocratic compared to Israel. But Israel pretends to be the bastion of democracy in the Middle East. The embodiment of western ideals.

In reality, it has become a country with racist laws, nationalist politics, and exclusionary objectives. Acountry where ethnic cleansing is considered acceptable policy. A land where race is destiny ! Building a Wall that separates the land and claiming it's for "security reasons"? In the 21st century, building a Wall, only ten years after the Berlin Wall came crushing down?? Yep, a fucking Wall, and we are reduced to hanging on to Dubya's words, waiting to hear whether the President will call it "a problem" (=tough on Israel!) or "an issue" (=soft). What a colossal tragicomedy.

We should be thankful that not all Israelis have descended as low as the criminals who now run their country. B'tselem and the mutinous soldiers and officers and all the Peace Now activists and the various dissenters are the true Zionists.

[B-Man]

Building a Wall that separates the land and claiming it's for "security reasons"? In the 21st century, building a Wall, only ten years after the Berlin Wall came crushing down?? Yep, a [censored] Wall, and we are reduced to hanging on to Dubya's words, waiting to hear whether the President will call it "a problem" (=tough on Israel!) or "an issue" (=soft). What a colossal tragicomedy.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that even the most basic (and non-violent!) measures taken to prevent suicide bombings are condemned by the anti-semites and racists. According to people like you and Alger, there is nothing Israel can do to defend itself against terrorists. In your view, the suicide bombers should have free reign to kill and disfigure as many as they wish.

Why don't you say the real reason this wall is such a problem--that it will reduce suicide bombings and thus the leverage (real or perceived) of the terrorists? If the Palestinians didn't want a wall, they should have thought of that before starting their murderous rampage, which has only paused with the most recent 3-month truce. You know damn well the terrorists will start their dirty work again at what they think is the most opportune moment (a la the Yom Kippur War; imagine if Israel ever started a war against its neighbors on an Arab holiday? You and Alger would still be screaming about it! But terrorists are free to do whatever they want, whenever they want and there is nothing Israel is permitted to do about it, in Cyrus' perfect world).

Also, please do not compare this to the Berlin Wall. That comparison is absurd (unless you can point out to me that there were waves of suicide bombers infiltrating West Germany from East Germany prior to The Wall being built). Israel has a moral right to secure its people against terrorism; the wall isn't hurting anyone, but it is going to help keep innocent people safe from homicide bombers.

Your invoking of the Holocaust would be offensive if it was coming from any sane or unbiased person.

[MMMMMM]

M: [ QUOTE ]
Palestinians (and Arabs in general) tend to hold far more racist attitudes than do Israelis.

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Cyrus: [ QUOTE ]
For the last decades or so, yes. The roots of their racism (rather of their deep-seated hatred) is Israel coming on to the Middle East and taking away from the Palestinians the land they occupied for quite a large number of centuries. But before the 20th century, I challenge you to show me in the Middle East any anti-semitism remotely approaching the intensity of anti-semitism exhibited by Catholic and Orthodox (Russian) Christians against Jews, for the last two millenia.

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I wasn't trying to compare Arab prejudice against Jews vs. other groups' prejudice against Jews; I was comparing Israeli prejudice against Arabs vs. Arab prejudice against Jews. And the latter is much greater in depth and scope.

One another note: Cyrus why do you continually take the side of the Arabs, who are blessed with far greater natural resources than the Jews but have managed to do far less with them. Adherence to antiquated ideologies is a curse not a blessing, and the troubles of the Arabs are almost entirely thus self-created.

The Arabs should be perhaps the richest people in the world today due to their oil wealth and vast lands, but their extremely narrow economies and tyrannical political systems actually destroy wealth rather than create it.

Sorry but I have trouble siding with stupidity on the part of either individuals or large groups.

Also, with the huge natural resources and space the Arabs possess, they could easily have resettled the Palestinians and helped them get a good start. However the Arab leaders have long preferred to use the Palestinians as pawns in their campaign of hatred against the Jews, because directing the anger of the Arab masses outward at a convenient target serves to keep this anger from being focused inwardly at the corrupt and backwards regimes.

Those who dislike the Jews for their successes, rather than being envious, should instead attempt to emulate the methods which led them to success: to wit, an emphasis on study, hard work and frugality. Likewise too have many Asian peoples raised themselves out of hard circumstances to become quite successful. But the liberal-thinking of today seems to be to try to achieve equality by dragging everyone down to near-mediocrity, rather than by encouraging excellence in everybody.

By the way every time I have listened to an interview with Netanyahu he has struck me as making perfect sense--quite a contrast to the rantings and delusive ideas typically put forth by many in the Arab world, and quite a contrast too to the ideas espoused by Palestinian militia and Palestinian "spiritual leaders."

Reason is an essential ingedient to long-term peace. The less Reason someone possesses, the more likely they may be to become irrationally violent. It will probably be a long time before the ugly face of irrational violence subsides in the Middle East.

[andyfox]

I fully understand the sentiments behind the Zionist movement and am well aware of both the events of this century and the course of Jewish history. But the idea of a Jewish state inevitably leads to problems. Jewish history is not all horrors; the view that Jews have always been persecuted and inevitably will be, is not true. After all, the city with the largest Jewish population in the world is not in Israel (it is New York).

The practice of Zionism, as well as it's theory, is what led to the heart of the problem right at the beginning. Allying itself with British imperialism, the Zionists colonized a land with people already living on it; those people objected right from the beginning. Like many people who had been trod upon, the Zionists acted the part of their former oppressors in how they treated the natives. This was a "natural" thing for European people at that time: to treat the natives as people of lesser import.

And since the beginning, both peoples have learned to hate each other.

As I have posted here before, I don't know if a solution exists. Neither people have shown themselves worthy of the land that many consider holy.

[Cyrus]

I am not surprised that there are people defending monstrosities such as the Israeli Wall. There were people, in and out of the German Democratic Republic that were telling ya, with a straight face, that the Berlin Wall was for the protection of the Easterners!

Yes, I know. The Wall is supposed "to protect Israel from terrorists". Well, if that had actually any substance, there would be perhaps some room for discussing its possible merits. In reality, Walls cannot deter or stop terrorists. What the Wall does actually is to further divide the Palestinians. And grab more of that fertile, yummy land of the West Bank in view of the upcoming creation of an independent "Palestinian State". (Hah.)

"According to people like you and Alger, there is nothing Israel can do to defend itself against terrorists."

Patently absurd. You obviously don't have the slightest idea about my position on this. (Suffice to say that I much prefer Israel's methods of selective and clean assassinations, which are not always so, to the gigantism of American wholesale invasions.)

"Your invoking of the Holocaust would be offensive if it was coming from any sane or unbiased person."

Gee, thanks.

Next time I "invoke" the Holocaust, I'll be sure to ask permission from you and the doctors.

--Cyrus

(By the way, it's not me who "invokes" the Holocaust. I'm not the one offering excuses here. You are! Look up the word's meaning.)

[Cyrus]

"Why do you continually take the side of the Arabs, who are blessed with far greater natural resources than the Jews but have managed to do far less with them?"

I didn't know I was supposed to automatically take the side of the most efficient and less blessed with matural resources people. Strange. I was under the impression that this discussion was about people and human decency, you know, morality. You are saying this is about economics?

And ...minerals?

"Adherence to antiquated ideologies is a curse not a blessing, and the troubles of the Arabs are almost entirely thus self-created."

The fact that the people of India were centuries behind the British in matters of civilisation does not make the British any less brutal occupiers or imperialists. Why are you even considering the level of civilisation of a people when you think how that people should be treated? You can't really be that kind of person. Are you?

"Every time I have listened to an interview with Netanyahu he has struck me as making perfect sense."

In the latest Israeli elections, Bibi managed the impossible : he came on as the even more extreme Right Wing candidate than Sharon! The butcher of Sabra and Shatila thus managed to appear as some sort of a "centrist", "moderate" figure. And won more handily.

I would call it adding insult to injury, but there were no injuries when Sharon, as a young commando, was attacking Palestinian towns. Only dead.

[MMMMMM]

I've gotten a bit off-track here but let's remember we were earlier comparing relative levels of prejudice between Jews/Arabs. So anyway... I wasn't saying you should automatically take the side of the Jews--the more civilized and advanced culture--but I was asking why you always seem to take the side of the Arabs over the Jews.

Also, I view the problems in recent years as being more the fault of the Palestinians than the Israelis.




Cyrus: [ QUOTE ]
In the latest Israeli elections, Bibi managed the impossible : he came on as the even more extreme Right Wing candidate than Sharon! The butcher of Sabra and Shatila thus managed to appear as some sort of a "centrist", "moderate" figure. And won more handily.


[/ QUOTE ]

But compared to Palestinian and Arab leaders, Netanyahu would look like a moderate. Compared to the head Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Netanyahu would be a moderate. And compared to any highly placed Palestrinian official, Netanyahu would be a relative moderate as well.

It's sort of like calling Falwell and Robertson extremists because they are more right-wing than...... --until you realize that their Islamic counterparts issued a fatwa sentencing Falwell to death for the crime of blasphemy.

So yes, I do think the level of culture and civilization does have something to do with the entire discussion. And by the way what do you think about Arafat having had suspected Palestinian Israel-sympathizers mutilated and killed with no trial.

So if the Palestinian Authority can't stop Hamas et al from their MORONIC, despicable attacks--and it appears they can't--Israel will eventually be forced to take out all those terrorist leaders. Maybe the USA should just divert some Special Forces teams as soon as we finish with Saddam and Tikrit and help them do it straightway. More good riddance to bad rubbish.

[brad]

original post -
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Elsewhere AC Player has posted a link to a news story about this; here's another one. Who wants to defend these overtly racist laws, then?


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my response -
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u realize ok to own non jewish slaves there, although law passed 5 years ago officially outlawing it.

big sex slave stuff.

but theyre gods chosen, those russians, so u r blatantly anti-semetic and in some countries could be imprisoned. here soon.

shame on u


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ok fleshed out it is -

you realize that in israel it was totally legal for jews to own non-jewish slaves up until about 5 years ago when a big outcry got a law on the books to officially prohibit it, although it is still tolerated.

mostly it consists of sex slave traffic, (desperate)women from other (poor) countries lured there in search of work, although kidnappings have been reported. (dyncorp (in bosnia) admittedly runs/ran a sex slave ring where 200k women were kidnapped/pimped with some sent to other countries)

sarcasm = ON;

but theyre gods chosen people, the jews are, even though most israelis are really russian emigrants (with their concomitant ideals of freedom) , so u r blatantly anti-semitic and in some countries could be imprisoned. hate speech which is really thought crime is catching on in the US and will undoubtably be here soon.

shame on you for even suggesting any jew could do anything wrong. lets hope we get real freedom here in america so we can imprison you for your offense.

sarcasm = OFF;
// note anti-semitic speech is punishable by imprisonment in many countries today

[Wake up CALL]

brad if I convert to Judism do I get my choice of sex slaves or must I settle for sloppy 2nds?