Misplayed TT

[callmedonnie]

Tough hand at a new table. When UTG goes from cold calling 3 bets on PF and on the flop, to leading out turn I'm annoyed. I may want to fold there as well, especially because of you position.

It might be worth a call to see if button raises the turn. If not, you may get a relatively cheap showdown. If so, you can call for a bet on turn, and fold for two.

Again, at a new table w/out reads it is hard to know whether to lean towards calling down or folding (or raising for that matter). What you should do is buy Playerview also. Load your tables for 20-30 minutes before playing. Not only will it help you sit at more profitable tables, it will makes decisions like this much easier.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
So let me restate it clearly. TT is a 50% favorite to win the pot with *three* opponents

[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong. TT is not a 50% favorite against 3 other unkown players - particularly when one of those players could 3-bet 2 limpers and a raiser.

[ QUOTE ]
...its likely the one of their over cards is in some elses hand given two EP limpers... ...don't muddy the water saying the EP limpers don't have to have the re-raisers outs, its more likely they do then not.

[/ QUOTE ]
They don't. Why can't they be limping small pocket pairs? or suited connectors? This is Party 2/4. EP <> group 1 hands. But an unkown PF 3-bettor certainly has a pretty well defined range.

[BigEndian]

Blue, don't let this hand discourage you. It shows that you are doing a great job paying attention to what the action tells you.

Unfortunately, with a big pot, you should be calling this down and mucking only after you are shown the over pair or better. There are too many horrible players playing online to fold hands like this.

Keep it up though, this kind of hand reading is very important to gaining additional bets and saving bets when the opportunities arise (especially in live games when the betting is generally a little more sane).

- Jim

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (13.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.


Turn: (11.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

When UTG bets into me after being raised the previous round, I am really worried. I think he may have flopped two pair or something to be able to bet into a raiser and re-raiser. So I fold here.



[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't looked at the results, but my guess is that UTG is trying to represnet a 2. There is no way he has a two (ok not no way, but rarely I would say) A turned 2 would be more apt to CR the aggressive Flop for multiple bets.

Since we have connectors on the board, I'd say you need to up the possiblity that someone had flopped two pair 67, which you obviously caught up with.

You still may be behind the button, representing a top tier hand, but he could just as easily have 99 or worse, as well as naked overcards.

Call down.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Make up your mind. So only preflop 3 betters have predefined ranges of hands but limpers are playing any random two regardless of position?

This is wrong thinking and is you just really trying to justify your point.

It has been over a year since I played 2/4 but in my recent excursions trying to make 10k hands in 4 days I have seen the same idiotic play I saw last time. Limp reraising UTG with 88, Over limping and then raising with K7s.

But most of the time its people limping in with big cards in EP and people over limping in LP with the implied odds hands.

Later,
MarkV.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Make up your mind. So only preflop 3 betters have predefined ranges of hands but limpers are playing any random two regardless of position?

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That's right. I'm not sure why you think that this concept is so odd? Obviously there are many weak, loose passive player who will limp with a wide range of hands (I never said random) and this same type of player will have a fairly well-defined range of hands when they 3-bet. This seems to me like pretty standard "gap-concept" thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
It has been over a year since I played 2/4 but in my recent excursions trying to make 10k hands in 4 days I have seen the same idiotic play I saw last time.Limp reraising UTG with 88, Over limping and then raising with K7s... ...But most of the time its people limping in with big cards in EP and people over limping in LP with the implied odds hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
If there is one of us who can't make up their mind - it would be YOU sir...

First you say that the 2/4 players are idiots. Then you conclude that their typical style of play is fairly close to correct strategy of tight up front, loose in the back?!? I'm confused?!? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[MrDannimal]

The range of limpable hands UTG is wide enough that you can't just off-handedly say "UTG must have 1 of the LP's overcard outs".

It's also not unreasonable to say that the range of hands of a PF 3-bet is narrower and easier to identify than that of a UTG limper. ESPECIALLY with no reads.

UTG could be holding A2s, A6s or A7s (and saying to himself "Hey, I've got 2 pair!"), or two diamonds (QJ-98 or any combination in between, or some Kx combination too). He bet the flop, so he could have two spades as well.

LP probably has a big pair or big suited overcards. We don't know he's just going to flat call the UTG turn bet when we fold, but the PF and Flop 3 bets make me lean towards an overpair, but also overcard spades. The flat call on the turn pushes me towards the spades.

Either way, there are many UTG hands that don't take up one of LPs outs. What you're talking about here doesn't even really fit. Nobody over-limped in LP, they three bet. I don't even think "most of the time" it's big cards limping in EP. On top of that, your claim is in conflict with your earlier "they're sharing outs" claim, because a LP implied odds hand is less likely to share an out with big cars limped form EP.

I really think we're ahead of UTG here, but with LP behind having 3 bet me each time I'm wary of a raise becuse I can easily be way behind. I'd call down without a read, but I wouldn't hate a turn raise. I don't know what I'd do to a 3-bet (you'd be getting 10:1 back to you assuming UTG calls, so I think I'd call, but it'd be close).

[MVicuna]

Hi,

People's 3 betting raising standards are all over place even for your loose passive 2/4 player. Putting them on a range of 6 hands is incorrect when they 3 bet you. Which is what that statement said, notice how each of the hands I listed delt with getting 3 bet???

There are not very many 40+ VPIP players at 2/4. Those are the players who usually are playing the real bad cards in EP. But your mid 30's player is going to have pretty much what you think they have given their position.

Given that 2/4 is made up of mostly ~30 vpip players, They will be limping in EP with big cards more then small suited connectors.

Later,
MarkV.

you didnt play aggressively enough, you have so many bets in the pot, shoulda called river. thats 1 mistake, other mistake is ur fear. reraise his raise instead of being afraid of 2 pair, if he rereraises be scared but u will know his hand then, a feeler bet. woulda saved u the whole pot!!!!!!
Also think from their perspective, ragged flop, that guy raised, im putting him on AK, he didnt hit, now hes repping something real big so im gonna outplay him on this hand!
hope i could help
chris larmore
larmorec@msu.edu

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
People's 3 betting raising standards are all over place even for your loose passive 2/4 player. Putting them on a range of 6 hands is incorrect when they 3 bet you. Which is what that statement said, notice how each of the hands I listed delt with getting 3 bet???
There are not very many 40+ VPIP players at 2/4. Those are the players who usually are playing the real bad cards in EP. But your mid 30's player is going to have pretty much what you think they have given their position.
Given that 2/4 is made up of mostly ~30 vpip players, They will be limping in EP with big cards more then small suited connectors.

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There isn't one word or truth in anything you said here.