Winner's anxiety

[Jeffage]

I agree completely with this post.

Jeff

[johnc]

Joby, I may be completely off on this one but drawing from my own experiences in playing competetive sports throughout my life one gets in a mindset of winning at often times to the point of elation or euphoric when that win comes. My background as a pharmacist tells me that that feeling is an endorphin release and can be very real. Associated with that euphoric reponse to winning is the conscious drive to continue feeling that way or more to the point not to feel the opposite that being losing - I don't like losing but sometimes I know that the euphoria of winning a great hand has driven me away from the table mentally and many times physically because I want to "quit while I'm ahead". I've come to realize that while quitting while ahead is not neccessarily bad my real motivation to leave cannot be rooted in the drive to avoid that which provokes the ending of that great feeling that being losing. My current solution, albeit rather self-deceptive, is to play occasionally on ultra-micro tables where the loss to my bankroll is minute and "learn" how to lose - sounds counterproductive but it helps to desensitize myself to the ups and downs keeping my mind focused and at the same time detached from the cards. My 2 cents worth.

[Nigel]

Good advice, but I would rather make $1000/day than 6 days of break even play with a $7k win.

Booking winning sessions helps your overall state of mind and makes the grind feel worth it. See the thread about how much of a cut people would take off of their WR to be guaranteed an hourly rate for an idea of just how significant this is.

Also, there is a degree of self-doubt and uncertainty thats plagues many of us in the mid-higher stakes games as you never know how big your edge really is when you are sitting with very tough opponents.

Nigel

[JobyWan]

The bankroll observation is a good one and probably more relevant than I've considered. I usually keep around $1,000 in my account for $100 NL. I find $25/50 NL too frustrating in the "new fold em hold em" sense, but at $100, variance is kept to a minimum, while income is decent. However, $1,000 is not near the suggested bankroll for $100 NL.

My modest goal as a full time poker player will be $1500 per pay period (two weeks), to be on par with my current job. That's about a buy in a day, or 1/2 a buy in assuming I'm playing two tables as I normally do. Historically, I manage to reach that goal in a 45 minute session or two with bigger wins as gravy. Hopefully the gravy will cover any potential losses.

As a post-script, I logged my first loss today (since the big loss day 3 months ago). I was not able to stick to my $100 floor and ended up down $300 (on the $200 table today). In exploring how I feel now, I'm finding out that a big part of my issue may be in control. I didn't mind so much losing the money, but the fact that I didn't stick to my loss cap, or didn't have the self discipline to do so is clearly the core reason that I feel like [censored] right now. I faced real tilt and lost. I finally forced myself to leave at nearly $300 down. It was a minor victory at that point, but clearly illustrates where the bulk of my 'training' will need to go for now - mental toughness and discipline.

True to form, I pulled a reactionary $1000 out of my account quickly, leaving myself with a few hundred to start building back up - the loser to winner road that works so well. Life - death - rebirth I suppose.

[Buck_65]

STOP LOOKING AT THE CASHIER WHILE YOU PLAY! You should be playing your best game regardless of how the cards are falling. Short term results don't really mean anything, it's all about how you've done for the month. Just play your A game, don't even think about how much you're up or down during a session. Playing to "get even" or "get ahead" is absolutely absurd and ridiculous to a poker player who understands the game.

If this doesn't make sense to you, you really need to make poker your part time hobby instead of your main source of income. By the way, I used to have a very similar problem and it definitely made me play less than my A game. When this happens, it is time to stop playing.

[jonnyv]

You will never be able to win every session no matter how hard you try. Trust me when I tell you I have played this same way and have gone broke using it. I'll be playing 2-4 and lose so I go to 3-6 lose more go to 5-10 lose more etc. In order to be a winning player you need to be able to accept that you will lose some sessions. You may have a problem with your thinking. Until you can control the urge to quit after a loss than you will not win in the long run.

[bambi]

Play limit!

I hate NL because when i build my stack i get very nervous that one bad call will erase all the good i have done, Therefore i play limit, as one bad decision only costs you 1BB. It is a mental trait that has no quick fix

[Al Schoonmaker]

You wrote: "What I need to learn is how to win - to believe there should be no cap on how much and how often I can win. ... and that good players can and should win consistently till the end of time."

It will NOT happen, and thinking that way sets you up for major disappointments.

You wrote: "but do pros really not expect to win everytime they sit down?"

They know better than to expect to win every time. Most of them expect to win about 67-75% of the time. The ONLY way to win much more frequently is to stay when you are losing and hit and run when you are ahead, a silly way to go.

You wrote: "I also have a stop gap for losing - one buy-in."

I would regard it as too conservative. However, it is much better to take a small loss than to risk going on tilt.

You wrote: "Is the game +EV or -EV. Sounds like a post it note in the making."

I borrowed it from David (along with lots of other ideas).

Regards,

Al

[USGrant]

I really don't think you should expect 1,500 every 2 weeks by playing with a $1,000 roll and only two-tabling. You can easily blow through that $1K in a downturn week, then you've thrown yourself in catch up mode: instead of earning $750 the following week, you'll have to earn $1500. If you only earn $500 that week, you'll have to earn $1750 the next, etc.

Based on what I read here on 2+2 and other sources, if you're thinking of going "pro" you should have at least six months living expenses socked away and a very ample and cushiony bankroll for the stakes you're playing. Also keep in mind retirement savings, healthcare, etc. (may not be relevant if you're hitched). Again, I don't know what your savings situation is, but if you're skittish about daily $200 or $300 swings, it doesn't sound like you've got the financial depth a person needs to be a poker entrepreneur. Remember that one of the most prevalent reasons that new companies fail is lack of capital (bankroll). Same for poker players. You sound like you're a decent player, but I don't know if you should quit your day job just yet.

You're lucky that your wife is hip to you playing that much poker. I've posted here about a sticky situation with my fiance who really is not a big fan of me playing. I was dutifully emasculated for the post, but it was helpful, and I'm still playing. If your wife is cool with it, and you're a winning player, then you can get in 15-20 hours a week playing and still make some nice supplemental coin for your guaranteed, twice-a-month pay check complete with health care benefiits, retirement savings, and the like.

If you are going to go pro however, you must start with a bigger roll, and you must multi-table, and you must not tilt. Also, read Sklansky every day.

[JobyWan]

Post script to the post script:

I felt a bit akward, in the end, about my post here, because given the responses I received, I feel like I didn't communicate my situation clearly. But the net result was lots of reflection. I've ditched my 'loss cap' idea as I feel it interferes with the previously discussed "is the game +ev or -ev" thinking that a true analytical player must live by (I hope to meet one someday). I've thought a lot about my bankroll and I enjoy the sense of urgency that having only a few hundred in the bank gives me because it makes my awareness and concentration that much sharper. I have yet to lose more than one buy-in, and when I do, I will worry about bankroll.

The last two days have offered me the worst cards I've ever had at on-line poker, but I was still able to pull out winning sessions (yes yes, I know I still suffer from session win psychosis). I played 4 hours with a win % of 7% on 6 max (that's less than half of the stastical norm), and saw only 27% of my flops (33% would be just seeing the blinds at 6 max), yet still netted the modest win ($50), and same goes for today - 11% win w/ 30% flops seen for 4hours was a $207 win = $257 for 7 hours or over $30 p/h..which is above target and with bad cards.

What this self-centered rambling has suceeded in doing, thanks to the generous and insightfully indulgent responses from the 2+2 community, is allowed me to stop overthinking results and start trusting in playing.

I guess, until it bites me in the ass and proves me wrong, I'll offer this thought to those as stubborn as me:

Variance is inversely proportional to patience and awareness. By having ultimate patience, zero ego and perfect awareness, theorectially, I believe variance can be almost eliminated over a session. (playing NL)

Shouldn't there be an anti-variance movement?

Variance = the earth is flat!

Prove it round!


JobyWan
P.S. while you're at it, please prove that cheeseburgers and tacos are good for you and will help you live forever.

p.s.s. Al, I neglected to give props for your excellent work - I've enjoyed it thoroughly and given it as a gift several times.