AK catches an A on the flop

[Liam Carver]

My guess:
CO has 44
MP1 has AJs

Liam

[Yobz]

Anyone else just call the turn raise? A TAG c/r'ing me is sorta scary....then just call down the river...? I wouldn't want the turn capped and then I still call the river because the pot would be huge.

[Kyriefurro]

MP1 showed AJ, which was not a surprise.
CO showed 88...which shocked me since he shut down after my raise on the flop. I'd pretty much put him on Ax. Yes, he's a little on the passive side, but even a passive player usually bets when they flop a set, or else they slow play and wake up on the turn. CO didn't do either of these heh.

[Kyriefurro]

I really debated this raise at the time the hand was played. I finally decided to do it based on since I was fairly confident of my read on MP1, and the hand I put him on. I didn't think he'd raise 88 or 44 preflop. And if he'd had AA he would have capped PF, so AK or AQ seemed most likely. I'd already decided that CO was playing a weaker hand based on his flop play. I thought that at worse, I was splitting the pot with MP1. With CO coming along for the ride, the 3-bet was mainly for value.

Or so I thought hehe.

[Pominos]

I'd put CO on a set slow played on the flop probably 8:s And MP1 on A with decent kicker.

[JoeyJoJo Shabadu]

CO with 888 is an idiot, or he's throwing you something to think about later because he's passive and doesn't like to be raised (although that's none to bright imo). His passive play on the river is bad. If he was only slow playing he would have raised the river. I think your read on this guy should have changed after this hand...to very passive/chicken little.

MP is not thinking either. He should have folded the flop or raised the river. Why else is he in except to hit his kicker?

[brettbrettr]

I would call the turn bet. When a TAG raises me on the turn and I only have top pair I"m not thrilled.

[Kyriefurro]

[ QUOTE ]
When a TAG raises me on the turn and I only have top pair I"m not thrilled.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about this response a lot. It seems to be a variation on an idea that appears frequently on posts, one that says, "when a TAG raises it's not good." It seems closely related to it's twin sister, "when a LPP raises it's not good." This seems to be an almost generic response to aggression, and I've seen it from more than one player.

Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm a poker noobie. But I can't believe that this deer-in-the-headlights approach to aggression is a good tactic, regardless to who is initiating the aggression. This approach seems to imply two things: 1) Villain would only bet the best hand. 2) That hand is, by definition, better than my hand. Neither item should be accepted as fact.

It's true that the first item is likely in the case of a very passive player, but an aggressive player could have several reasons to raise. They could be bluffing/semi-bluffing. They might have the second-best (or third or forth) hand and be trying to knock out the stronger hands. They may, in fact, have the best hand and be betting for value. So the fact that a TAG raises, is not neccessarily an indication that he has the best possible hand.

The second idea is also suspect. Yes, it's possible - even easy - for villain to have a better hand. But careful examination of the board PLUS some logical evaluation is necessary to decide if the possibility is actually a reality. This hand is a good example. The turn card made a 5-high straight possible, but the possibility has to be weighed against the likelihood of someone playing a 25 against all that preflop and flop aggression. In this case the probability was pretty low.

Now I'm not saying that a raise from a TAG or LPP should be ignored. That type of raise is certainly cause for concern. The raise should cause Hero to pause for a moment and carefully consider the situation, and then procede with caution. But I can't believe that automatically going into call-down mode at the first sign of aggression from a TAG or LPP has a positive effect on EV.

Then again, like I said, I'm still a poker noob. So maybe I'm off base here. I'd love to hear some further thoughts on this from the more experienced crowd.

[Mig]

The guy with the set of 8 has probably been shutdowned when you raised the flop. Since you raised preflop and you were playing very agressivly postflop he probably thought you could have AA... you are lucky it was a TAG b/c he would have capped on the turn...

[brettbrettr]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the time you took with this post. But go back and reread MP1's action. He raised pre-flop, called 2 cold on the flop (when YOU raised the obvious ace), then c/rd the turn. I'm not folding, but I'm not putting in more bets than I have to.

[ QUOTE ]
Now I'm not saying that a raise from a TAG or LPP should be ignored. That type of raise is certainly cause for concern. The raise should cause Hero to pause for a moment and carefully consider the situation, and then procede with caution. But I can't believe that automatically going into call-down mode at the first sign of aggression from a TAG or LPP has a positive effect on EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is automatically recommending that you call down whenever someone plays back at you. Perhaps I could have been clearer. Considering your line, then his line, I'm shutting down here pretty quickly.