Would you have played the 3rd nuts any differently?

[Sooga]

PP 2/4 game. The game is not overly tight, nor overly loose. I have J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] UTG. I limp. Mistake? Maybe... but JT s00ted is my favorite hand, so unless someone's sticking a gun into my face, I'm gonna play it. Anyway, onto the hand. Everyone folds to a fairly loose, aggressive cutoff, everyone folds to me, and I call.

Flop comes T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

We cap it.

Turn comes A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

We cap it again.

River comes 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

I bet, he raises, I call. Anyone play this differently? Comments/suggestions please.

[sleepyjoe]

when he raises on the river I think you can only call. You have to put him on a higher flush - even if he doesn't have it he's already given you a whole bunch of extra bets so you shouldn't feel cheated.

He could have flopped a set and pushed it the whole way, at which point he should have slowed down on the river.

Either way, he should have slowed down on the river unless he has the higher flush.

[Tyler Durden]

Your UTG limp with JTs is too loose for my tastes. I think a lot of LL players are infatuated with this hand because of the Lee Jones book, in which he really hypes up the hand. It plays well in multi-way pots, but not well in shorthanded games. Many players love it because it makes the most straights, they're all the nuts, blah blah blah. Unfortunately, virtually all online games are quite tight (3 to 4 at most seeing the flop on average) so you really don't want to be playing this hand from UTG unless you know the game texture so well that you're sure other players will come along and it won't be raised. But you have to resist the temptation because it's definitely a -EV from UTG and will cost you money in the long run.

Only play profitable hands.

Good luck.

[Munga30]

I think its an interesting question (if not a Sklansky-esque "important" one) as to whether you should jam headsup on the flop. Yes, you may be ahead, but what hands will he fold that currently beat you? You don't have enough outs against some of his likely holdings to be the money favorite. For example, you are barely the money favorite against AA, KK, and QQ without a diamond (14 outs - 1:1.04) but not when they do (13 outs - 1.07:1). Will he fold any of those non-diamond big pairs? You are never a money favorite against JJ, a set, 43, or even KQd with 15 outs against you, even though you're currently ahead (same with AKd and AQd although that's not what he had). You are ahead of Kxd and Qxd and they are not likely to be out there, but it's expensive when they are and a diamond comes on the turn or river. Also, once the flop is capped, it's difficult to think you have a chance at a free card.

One way jamming the flop can help you, however, is determining whether you are beat when a diamond comes on the turn. Did you cap the flop or did he? If you capped the flop, bet the turn and got raised, or if he capped the flop and you check-raised the turn and got three bet, it may be time for a player-dependent decision to call and check-call the river. On one hand is the ever-growing likelihood of a bigger flush, and on the other hand is your opponent's aggressiveness with a set or AxKd.

[bernie]

preflop...limp is fine...

flop....fine..you have top pair with a flush draw...

turn...ummm....the flush is there, and he isnt slowing down...
so the question is..what had would HE be jamming with on the turn? only a set, str8, or flush...but with the flush showing and you betting also, you may be beat here....depends on the player...against some, you could actually fold this if they capped....what are you putting him on with his 4 bet turn?

river...

im check calling...after the turn, im done betting.

unless the guys a moron*, you lost this hand

*unless he knows you will also overplay a hand...he may have had a decent read...do you always play less than nut flushes this strong? would YOU play a set this way? knowing how the opponent percieves you helps also...

b

[Sooga]

Like I said earlier, I'd watched him play a few hands earlier, and saw he was pretty loose, and also that he tried pushing his hands a bit too far. I called the river, and he turned over AK (no Kd), and I took it down.

[Ed Miller]

The preflop limp is fine... JTs is plenty strong to play in most games (despite what some tighties on this forum will try to tell you). Jamming the flop is just fine... you have 14 outs to beat an overpair and 12 outs to beat top pair/better kicker.

Once you hit the turn, though, and he doesn't slow down... you have to consider that he has you beaten. Once he puts in a 3-bet or 4-bet on the turn... he is saying that he has a strong hand. While he may be a maniac and raising on inadequate values here... he is telling you that he can beat your 4th nuts (not 3rd nuts). I would slow down on the river and expect to see, in order, K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] , 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] , and maybe AA.

[Sooga]

oops, you're right, 4th nuts... but even the loosest of loose opponents I've seen don't play 25s with much regularity, much less raise with it. That hand never even crossed my mind!

[Ed Miller]

Be careful... at some point you will play against a maniac or semi-maniac who will raise you preflop and then pound you into submission postflop and then show you 52s for the nuts.