When bottom two pair is counterfeited

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*bump*

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[edtost]

i like it at 2/4, but at 3/6, i've been c-f'ing these rivers.

thoughts?

[Nate tha' Great]

Betting the turn is fine.

I'd give up on the river.

[Flushed]

Hey Nate,

I think you're a great poster. I'd love to hear your logic of check/folding vs. betting vs. calling the river. I think there is an important concept involved in playing this river.

Thanks,

Flushed

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Nate,

I think you're a great poster. I'd love to hear your logic of check/folding vs. betting vs. calling the river. I think there is an important concept involved in playing this river.

Thanks,

Flushed

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I've looked at the hand again. Perhaps the way that you played it isn't so bad after all.

It's not actually clear that you're beat. You'd expect to hear something from an 8 at some point, and while a lot of the time you'll be losing to A3 or a rivered flush or 55, do I think you have the best hand here better than 1 time in 7? Against bad players who have just been calling the whole way, I think probably yeah.

In terms of higher-level concepts involved, I'm not so sure. The main thing is that you sometimes should be more inclined to bet against two opponents rather than one, because it's harder to overcall than to call, and it's harder to call if a player might overcall or (check)-raise behind you.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I've looked at the hand again. Perhaps the way that you played it isn't so bad after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

What would be your preferred way to play this?

Also, what are the other viable river options? c/folding? or checking and waiting to see what happens?

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of higher-level concepts involved, I'm not so sure. The main thing is that you sometimes should be more inclined to bet against two opponents rather than one, because it's harder to overcall than to call, and it's harder to call if a player might overcall or (check)-raise behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of sounds like your advocating a bet because you want to be able to call, but don't want to have to overcall since overcalling has negative expectation. But a bet can't turn water into wine. If the situation is -EV, shouldn't you just fold? I'm probably misunderstanding what you meant tho... please explain if I am.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I've looked at the hand again. Perhaps the way that you played it isn't so bad after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

What would be your preferred way to play this?

Also, what are the other viable river options? c/folding? or checking and waiting to see what happens?

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of higher-level concepts involved, I'm not so sure. The main thing is that you sometimes should be more inclined to bet against two opponents rather than one, because it's harder to overcall than to call, and it's harder to call if a player might overcall or (check)-raise behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of sounds like your advocating a bet because you want to be able to call, but don't want to have to overcall since overcalling has negative expectation. But a bet can't turn water into wine. If the situation is -EV, shouldn't you just fold? I'm probably misunderstanding what you meant tho... please explain if I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying that if you bet, it's somewhat more likely than usual that UTG lays down because he fears an overcall or a check-raise from SB, and it's somewhat more likely than usual that SB lays down because he'd have to overcall UTG's bet.

This hand might not be the best example of this principle, but in general you should be slightly more disposed to bet in a multiway pot as opposed to a heads up pot because sometimes the worse hand will call while the better hand will fold.

Here's a more concrete example. Say you raise on the CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. A loose-passive player cold calls on the Button and a reasonable but slightly tentative BB also calls.

The flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The BB checks and you bet. The SB calls with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the BB calls with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

The turn is the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The BB checks, you bet, and the Button calls. The BB now folds because he doesn't want to overcall, figuring that either you or the Button have him beat; in fact he has the best hand.

The river is the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. You check, the Button bets, and you call. Your ace high is good.

Note that you probably would not have won this pot if it had been heads up. You would also have not won this pot if you hadn't bet the turn.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
i like it at 2/4, but at 3/6, i've been c-f'ing these rivers.

thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Making a distinction between 2/4 and 3/6 on a hand like this is pretty funny. If these guys have her beat, they suck, and if they don't have her beat, they still suck.

I'm pretty sure that she's ahead often enough that she can't fold if UTG bets, so now she has to figure out how to make the most money.

If she checks and UTG checks down with a 2 or A high that he wouldn't have folded, that sucks. If she checks and UTG bets with a hand worse than hers and SB calls with a 2 or something else that she beats and she folds, that sucks.

If she bets and UTG calls with A high or BB calls with a 2 or she splits with a 3 that might have called UTG's bet and scared her into folding, that's good. If she bets and scares 44 or a 3 into folding, either b/c UTG isn't closing the action or because SB is afraid to overcall when UTG called with A high, that's a coup.

If she bets and gets called by a PP, rivered Q or a flush that would have bet and forced her to call anyway, who cares? If she bets and gets raised by a weirdplayed monster that she would have called down anyway, who cares?

I think Tash is ahead often enough that she wants to see a showdown, and I think betting puts her opponents in a position to make mistakes while it makes it harder for her to make one herself.

scrub

[Flushed]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Tash is ahead often enough that she wants to see a showdown, and I think betting puts her opponents in a position to make mistakes while it makes it harder for her to make one herself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. I rule! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]