A3s - do you let it go or chase, chase, chase?

[Ulysses]

You have A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB. 6 limp in. SB raises. You and everyone else call, and button makes it 3 bets this time. SB calls. At this point it's 50/50 to be 8-way for 3 SB vs 8-way for 5 SB. You call. Someone in the middle raises, it ends up 2 more to you. You call and see the flop 8-way capped.

Have you let it go yet?

Flop is 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . SB checks. You check. Next player bets. Everyone calls to you. Call or fold?

You call. Turn is 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] [7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]]. SB checks. Check or bet? You check. Next player bets. 4 callers to you. Call or raise?

You call, but think you should have raised. Agree? River is 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] [2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]] SB checks. Check or bet? You and next three guys check. Button bets. SB folds. Action's on you. 3 players between you and button). Raise or call?

[BKism]

I would check call the 32 small bet flop because with my bottom pair and back door flush draw. A case could be made for betting the flop with intention of getting raised and driving out a hand such as A-7s, but the chances of that hand specifically being out there are slim. You are on a draw commit as little as possible to the pot.
I love the turn but betting it is going to do me no good. I check call with my potential 14 outs. It is going to be bet most likely, but do we want to bet ourselves and take a chance of facing another bet back at us and further limiting the field? I don't. Check call.
The River a case can be made for either betting or checking with the intention of the raising. I bet the river, and get my callers. It is a big pot people will call, but they might check it down. Aces could now be scared of set, Kings scared of Aces, and some may be afraid of that 3. Bet and collect your bets. If you do check, check-raise. You will be called be the original better and maybe catch another caller.
I know my advice is very straight forward and boring, but often that is best.

[Ed Miller]

Folding at any point post-flop in this hand is insane. Your attitude from the flop on... once you hit your hand... should be to knock people out. Your outs are to two pair and trips... vulnerable holdings. The pot is big enough... and you have a good enough shot to win it... that you should be kicking all the gutshots and overcards out. You don't want to catch an A on the turn and then a 7 on the river and lose to some goober with AT. Bet out or checkraise... whatever will face the most people here with calling the most bets.

Once your flush draw materializes on the turn, you should be ramming and jamming. Don't stop raising until you run out of chips or the dealer calls the guys in the white coats.

As for the river, it's a tough choice. No one with a better hand than yours will fold if you raise. So then it's just deciding how many people behind you will be willing to cold-call two to showdown their 87o. I'd lean toward raising because bad players make really stupid calls on the end in huge pots.

[Bob T.]

Ok, you got trapped preflop, I guess you call all the way to the flop. With 8 players in, you at least have the consolation that you are not in last place.

Flop. You have 5 outs you like immediately, and the backdoor flush draw, and the pot is only offering you 47 to 1, call is the only choice.

Turn, you have 8 outs to the nuts, and an additional 5 outs, with 6 way action, a raise might have some value, but if you get reraised, you will be giving up value here, I would just call.

River- I would bet the river, and call if raised, you might be up against a set.

Good Luck,
Play well,

Bob T.

[bernie]

tough preflop call....but if you hit, youre liking it...if youre letting it go anywhere, it's here

flop...easy call

turn....you have 14 outs, and you may be able to figure if any of them hit theyre good....the only hand youd fear is the AA if an A hits....and that would be a remote holding...the sb doesnt have it, given his post flop play. he's likely got AK though. so figure an A is gone. 13 outs.

id also greatly doubt post flop that anyone else has AA either

if i thought there would be alot of callers, id raise. otherwise a call is fine....folding really isnt an option here.

river....since you checked and the bet came from your right, call, and go for the overcalls. if 2 players call behind you made an extra bet, if only 1 does, you broke even if you raised. if all 3 call, youre way ahead. if the bet came from your left, then obviously youd raise it.

you could have also bet out here. they may have made a curiousity call seeing if you chased down your 3. of course theyd miss the fact you turned the flush draw and call you a suckout. haha

i think your hand is good. if there was any set out, you shouldve heard from him by now. and i think the only real possibility of a set, the guy betting the whole way, checked the river. so you know he doesnt have it. unless he's going for the checkraise. which is another reason to just call the river.

b

[bernie]

youre not knocking anyone with a reasonable draw out here. even a gutshot will be calling with a pot this size.

on the turn, you may be up against a set. a c/r is viable, but if youre 3 bet...your outs just very possibly dropped by 7 or 8. giving you 6 outs. no one is 3 betting you here with only top pair. and their usually not 3 betting a check raiser with only 2 pair.

this is where some may drop. i wouldnt just blindly start slinging chips here. emptying your chip rack here would be a costly mistake. at what point do you put the bettor youre engaging in this flying chip orgy on a hand?

b

[Ed Miller]

I don't understand what about the action so far in this hand makes you think that any of his outs are not good here... there has been one bettor and several callers in a huge pot. I agree that if you get 3-bet on the turn, then you have to start thinking about a set... but if you are getting 3-4 callers here, I think you can go ahead and cap it anyway.

The point is... the large size of the pot here allows people to call all sorts of ugly draws... like baby pocket pairs... even weak overcards. You have a quality draw here... and a vulnerable one at that. If you raise their tenuous draws with your quality draw... you are making money... it doesn't matter if they call. Of course you would prefer it if they just folded.

[Ulysses]

So, in a nutshell, I think I botched the turn and river here. Here are my thoughts.

I don't understand what about the action so far in this hand makes you think that any of his outs are not good here...

I agree for the most part. In this game, there's a good chance we'd hear from two pair or a set (or an overpair) on the flop, and definitely by the time the betting gets to me on the turn (except, of course, if the guy opening the betting flopped a set).

Bernie mentioned the Ace outs. No reason to put sb on AK. In this game, it's more likely that he has two cards. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

However, no reason A7 and A9 can't be out there, so I'm not really excited about my Ace outs. Maybe consider them as 1 out. I have 8 flush outs to the nuts, and my ninth flush out is likely good as well. I'm pretty confident given the action that 3s are good as well, so that makes it about 12 outs.

I'm stuck pre-flop, and the 47-1 is an obvious call on the flop. The turn is where I think with my 12 outs and probable 5+ callers, I need to be raising. Perhaps I get 3 bet by a set who was laying in wait for that, but even then I have 8 clean outs. If most folks come along, there's definitely a case for 4-betting and/or capping the turn if possible, since anyone with any remote hope will stick around 'til the end. I knew I was behind to a bigger pair and just froze here on what I think is a clear raise. I need to do a better job of raising draws for value in situations like this.

On the river, I was sure I was good. I also expected the same bettor to open betting, get a few callers (or even raiser with a 3) and then I could check-raise and get a few calls. I think that's a solid plan and I didn't have any reason to think he'd really fear the 3, so I have no problem with my check.

When the original bettor checks, though, I and the whole table put the new bettor on trip 3s. Bernie mentioned going for the overcalls and making money if more than one guy calls. That was my thought at the table, however I think it's wrong.

At the table I thought if I raise, there's a good chance the 3 in the middle will fold. I called and got 2 of the 3 to call. That was good - 2 BB. However, if I raise here, the bettor will call (1 BB) so if even 1 guy in the middle calls for 2BB, I'm better off. With a pot this size, both of the guys who overcalled one bet would quite possible call two, so I may have lost as many as 3BB. I have very little concern about someone have a full house here given the action up to this point.

Oh yeah. Bettor turns over K3 and says "send it" before I have finished saying "with an Ace" [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I don't hate the way I played this hand, but a little sounder thinking and more aggression could have gained me 5-10BB here between the turn and river, so I think it was a pretty big misplay. Of course, folding would have been the real disaster here.

[bernie]

"I don't understand what about the action so far in this hand makes you think that any of his outs are not good here... "

i said youd make that assessment if youre 3 bet. not just by the initial bet. there was also lots of action preflop. id be suprised if at least one of them doesnt also have an A.
you cant just play disregarding what everyone may be holding. this doesnt seem to be a cap happy wild game based on this hand. the sb is very likely to have one of your outs...

"but if you are getting 3-4 callers here, I think you can go ahead and cap it anyway."

you cant just put the blinders on if someone 3 bets behind you. you have to try to put them on a holding. and not just a holding that makes your hand favorable. be realistic. youre basically saying you have absoutely no idea what theyd be holding, so in doubt, keep betting in the dark. why even read hands?

3 or 4 callers wouldnt be enough to ram and jam here. Dynasty and i did a big thread about pumping draws on the turn.

compare your odds of making your hand, including subtracting any outs that you read may be gone, and compare it with how many callers you may have likely.
if there are more possible callers than odds to hit, your raise is +EV. if not, its -EV for the play.

"You have a quality draw here... and a vulnerable one at that"

a vulnerable draw instead of a 'locked' draw? the fact is, you could be behind here if your 3 bet. in fact its a very good chance. youre not protecting anything here with this size of the pot. and someone may have a made hand, AND a better draw than you have. you could raise their tenious draws, but really, what would you be putting a 3 bettor on?

if this was no limit, would you go all in here? or call an allin bet? yes, i know it depends on stack size for both realting to pot size, im generalizing here....

it doesnt seem your looking ahead in this hand at some possibilities. this hand can change quite a bit in this betting round alone, and youd have to make an adjustment in the round. however, if you get 3 bet, and everyone calls, then id be thinking of capping. but i want to see how many call first before i make that decision. your call will also close the action if 3 bet from the original bettor. so if he 3 bets, and everyone folds to you, are you going to cap? i wouldnt.

b

[bernie]

"Bernie mentioned the Ace outs. No reason to put sb on AK. In this game, it's more likely that he has two cards"

you gave no info about this player, so i have to treat him as a typical unknown. and many unknowns still, will not raise out of the sb without a very good holding. you made no mention that he was a loose raiser in this spot.

"I knew I was behind to a bigger pair and just froze here on what I think is a clear raise."

another reason to be careful about 4 betting if youre 3 bet. i like youre thought process on the turn regarding number of callers influencing your possible cap...

river
interesting idea about at least 2 overcalling your c/r. however, there is a possibility of being 3 bet behind you. player depending. but a c/r is also a strong move, and could fold off the callers behind you.

" both of the guys who overcalled one bet would quite possible call two, so I may have lost as many as 3BB."

you got 2 overcalls along with the river bettor....3bbs

if you raise and get only 2 callers, you gain 4bbs. you can figure on of the 3 behind you may call, and the original bettor.

i dont see where your losing 3BB. unless you think that the 2 overcallers would also call your c/r here. it's possible but wishful thinking perhaps. but if you 'really' were confident in that assessment, raise it. but if youre not sure, id err on the side of just calling. but you make a good point about only needing 1 caller along with the original bettor.

the turn play was about the only questionable place here to me. sure, raising is good, but there's nothing wrong with calling here. as long as you dont fold. THAT would be the horrendous play.

btw....i believe in an earlier response i said i would raise here...but still be careful of the 3 bet.

b