First post - Don't go easy on me

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I'm running a little dense today...are you saying never c/r your OESD on the flop?

If that's NOT what you're saying could you please give an example of when you would c/r an OESD on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you had 4+ players trapped between you and a late bettor I would check/raise the OESD

[DeathDonkey]

I would if I had 5 opponents all calling but here we are only slightly better than breakeven and we are giving up the chance to pop the turn when we hit. Also if UTG 3 bets and anyone folds our CR gets worse and worse.

Shillx has this one dead on. Btw the preflop call is super super easy.

-DeathDonkey

[VBM]

this is an awful spot for it and i can't believe anyone is actually recommending Hero check-raise this flop.

You have no high card value.
You have no possible flush draw.
You have 3 bettors behind you and the PFR sandwiched in the middle.

I don't see what raising accomplishes here.

You already have a range of holdings for PFR (he's only raised KK, AA, AK so far)
You're not raising for value b/c there is no value to protect.
You can't really raise for a free card, b/c you're not in position.

i think i'd check-call this the whole way down...

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/raising the flop is honestly nothing short of awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may not be the best line depending on the game, but calling it nothing short of awful is going way overboard here.

[ QUOTE ]
If we get 3-bet and people fold out, we are losing value.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. And this causes me to reconsider the C/R line. But getting 3-bet here is not very common at all at a Party 1/2 table on a flop like this with the preflop action. Even someone holding QQ often fails to 3-bet this flop on Party 1/2.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if it works, what are we going to do on the turn when we miss? If we check, it gives our hand away. If we bet, we risk getting raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

We check-call on the turn when we miss.

[ QUOTE ]
So we check/call the flop. Now lets say the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes on the turn. We check/call again. However let's say that the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] does. Who is going to put us on a straight? We can can get a sweet check/raise in on the turn when we have the nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

We can do a very similar thing on the river if we C/R the flop and don't get 3-bet. In fact, we can do it on the turn when we hit and then still bet out the river. If we miss the turn and check / call, but then hit on the river, we can almost surely pull off the same sweet C/R on the river when more players are likely to call a river bet.

C/R'ing the flop and check-calling the turn when we miss will not give our hand away to the vast majority of players at 1/2 (and certainly not enough for them to get scared if a 5 falls on the river and we "suspiciously" check -- true, once we C/R after the 5 falls, there is more risk that players realize what we now have -- but honestly, many of them are calling a riase on the river even if they're 99% sure we rivered a straight).

[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet is counter-productive no matter how you look at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop bet or a flop C/R is counter-productive only if it drives people out. I dislike the lead bet with the PF raiser on Hero's left because of the risk of facing all with 2 cold. I don't think the C/R presents the same risk at 1/2 -- there is generally not enough aggression among typical 1/2 players to think a 3-bet is a significant risk. In fact, I think most typical 1/2 players, even with a strong hand like QQ on this flop, just call a check-raise and mistakenly "wait until the turn with big bets to get my value."

In sum, the decision to go for a C/R or C/C on the flop is, at this level, a very close call and dependent on table reads, IMHO.

EDIT: Thought this was a Party 1/2 game. Don't know if I feel the same about a 0.02/0.04 game.

[Shillx]

You are dead wrong. A very good player who posted in the long flush draw thread would say that the flop check/raise is stupid. I just happen to call it awful. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The thing you have to understand about a straight draw is that it is hidden. With a flush draw, everyone will slow down when 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s or 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s hit the board. When a 5 hits the board in this hand, who would expect someone to be playing 97s??? So because no one will notice the straight, you can collect an ass load of bets by being passive while you are still drawing (and then come to life whne a seemingly safe card hits).



If we check/raise the flop and all goes well.

p(win) = .315
n = 3 (2 SB + 2 BB) = +9 BB (we get one bet on turn/river with a straight)
p(lose) = .685
n = -2 SB - 1 BB = -2 BB

EV = 9(.315) - 2(.685) = +1.47 BB/Hand

Now lets say we check/call. We check/raise when we hit the straight. So we get 6 BB on that street alone!

p(win) = .315
n = 3 (1 SB + 2 BB + 1 BB) = 10.5 BB
p(lose) = .685
n = - 1 SB - 1 BB = -1.5 BB

EV = 10.5(.315) - 1.5(.685) = +2.28 BB/Hand

Check/calling >> Check/raising and it isn't even close.

Brad

[Catt]

Brad - numbers don't lie, but those numbers rest upon assumptions, and what I'm pushing back on is your assumptions.

C/R'ing this flop does not foreclose collecting more than one bet on the turn or river if a 5 falls. If you assume a flop C/R limits your future action this way, then it's clearly a bad play.

I'm arguing that it does not limit you to collecting only one bet on the turn and river. You can C/R this flop, have a 5 fall on the turn and C/R the turn too! And plenty of players will call the turn raise!

Didn't you just point out in another thread that in certain situations at these limits you need to turn off your brain (i.e., a BB stone cold bluff-betting into 5 players on the flop)? IMHO, you're giving too much credit to the thought process, analytical abilities, and impulse control (ability to act properly on good analytical abilities) to too many players in a typical Party 1/2 game.

[Shillx]

If we check/raise the flop and all goes well.

p(win) = .315
n = 3 (2 SB + 3 BB) = +12 BB (we even get a check/raise in with the nuts!)
p(lose) = .685
n = -2 SB - 1 BB = -2 BB

EV = 12(.315) - 2(.685) = +2.41 BB/Hand

Now lets say we check/call. We check/raise when we hit the straight.

p(win) = .315
n = 3 (1 SB + 2 BB + 1 BB) = 10.5 BB
p(lose) = .685
n = - 1 SB - 1 BB = -1.5 BB

EV = 10.5(.315) - 1.5(.685) = +2.28 BB/Hand

So even if we get a check/raise in we gain .13 BB/Hand. There are lots of other factors too that you have to consider. Like maybe having someone 3-bet when we have the nuts, or people folding out when we check/raise the nuts. We also have to consider that the flop check/raise might backfire.

So if everything works out and we get super tricky and pull a 2nd check/raise off we make .13 BB. I guarantee you that if you check/raise the flop in this spot and I check/call, I will do much better then you in the long run.

Brad

[moose47]

I appreciate all the comments so far. I know I played this one pretty badly on the flop and turn. With respect to the preflop call I really didn't think it was that close. When UTG raised I immediately put him on a high pocket pair or maybe AK. With that in mind, I know I'm going to have to hit the straight or the flush to win the hand. I was thinking that if I did hit it then it was likely he would end up with an overpair and pay me off nicely. So it was actually his low PFR% that made me more likely to call. Is this reasoning terribly flawed?

[moose47]

I see that leading into the preflop raiser is definitely not good. However if he was on my right instead would it be correct to lead out?

Incidentally, UTG had KK and MP2 had QQ.