Overplaying or good semi-bluffing

JinX11 · #1 01-06-2005, 10:07 PM

Ok, so, I'm wading through my first read of ToP (I'm a n00b, yeah) and have completed reading the chapter of semi-bluffing. I am more convinced than ever that I have no idea what I'm doing when playing poker. Moreover, reading the ToP chapter of semi-bluffing has made we wonder if I'm being bluffed / semi-bluffed often, how I've been responding, and how should I be responding.

Anyhow, lately, I've been in a number of situations where decent / good players play back at me on the flop by betting into or check-raising me. My typical line was to call their bet and check-fold the turn unless I improved to top pair, a decent draw, or a combo of the two.

Now, (again, that I am confused), I've decided to play back often (semi-bluff reraising). The results have mostly been good.

What I'd like to know is:

1) Is this behavior is the right idea or should I cool the aggression?
2) When is an appropriate time (e.g., personality types) to make these kinds of plays? Only against tight-aggressives?
3) Should I be making the plays that the Villians are making on me (reference the hand examples below)? Again, when are the appropriate times?

Thanks in advance for any responses. Sample hands are included below for reference.

Hand 1 -

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $3.
3 folds, MP1 (poster) raises, 5 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 4.66 BB

Hand 2 -

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 4.16 BB

Hand 3 -

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
6 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

JinX11 · #2 01-06-2005, 11:05 PM

Shameless bump.

happyshark · #3 01-06-2005, 11:10 PM

Seemed like he was trying to steal and you called his semi-bluff. Post some examples when it isn't heads-up and you semi-bluff/semi-bluff raise. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

ebranig · #4 01-06-2005, 11:16 PM

Hand 1, 3-bet preflop. This is a blind-steal so I collect bets when he'll pay them off for sure. That said, I think your 3-bet on the flop is reckless.

Hand 2 works because it's heads up and mono-flop. If he makes it 3-bets you probably should let it go though.

Hand 3 looks a bit reckless. I'd be more inclined to try this with a gutshot and/or backdoor flush draw.

Basically, I think you're pushing your AKo too hard on the whole.

Harv72b · #5 01-06-2005, 11:20 PM

Okay, you've probably actually got more hold'em experience than I do, so take this with a grain of salt. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When I'm playing AK, I go into the hand with the mindset that I will cap preflop against all but the very tightest PFRs (i.e., those guys that will only raise AA). I also plan to bet the flop no matter what comes down, and hang around at least until the turn in almost every circumstance. So I'm basically planning on spending up to 6 SBs on this hand irregardless of how things go.

In that light, if you can get to the flop for only 2 or 3 SBs, then bluff-raising an unknown (or aggressive) opponent and/or trying for a free card isn't really "costing" you anything. As you noticed, many aggressive players will bet into you on anything resembling a scary board (or a rags board), trying at least to gauge your hand...a good opponent will give up this line fairly quickly if you respond aggressively.

The key element is, this will only work against a good or very weak opponent. Your typical fish/loose passive will not fold top pair or any pair before the river, if even then, so you end up spewing a lot of chips against these players when you miss.

In answer to your 3 questions:
1) I think it is the right idea, even if it doesn't work all that often in SS. Keeping in mind that I've never played higher limits, I do think that this is the kind of play that you need to be capable of making in order to succeed there.
2) Either against very good or very weak (as in, fold at the first sign they might be behind) players. Basically, anyone that you feel is capable of folding top or at least second pair.
3) On rare occassions I think that you should be attempting the bluff against a PFR, but again only against those who would be capable of folding a big slick unimproved (or TT-KK on an A-high board). This is not something you should do regularly, though, because those very same good players that this can work on will also notice what you're doing, and will punish you for it later.

Anyway, that's what I think. Why do I always write books on here?

Munga30 · #6 01-06-2005, 11:21 PM

1. Everything in moderation. If you pick the right spots and the right opponents, the added aggression is a good thing. If you do it too much, you are opening yourself to easier explotiation (e.g., more rope-a-dope). What happens when players go into calldown mode against you? Can you often give it up or are you following through on multiple streets.

2. I think you want weak players that love to make a good laydown. Look for low WSD numbers. Looser preflop is probably better than tighter because they will flop more weak hands. A real TAG may punish you with legitimate holdings.

3. Yes, you should be thinking about picking up pots for which you don't have the cards. Look for the right flops in the right situations. Fewer players, flops that miss a good portion of hands that they could have, scary flops. Your hands are good illustrations.

JinX11 · #7 01-06-2005, 11:37 PM

I usually don't pull too many moves in multi-way pots just because it's too likely someone has a better hand. I'll try the standard free card play very often, bet into / raise a LAG with proper positioning with overcards to isolate, or bet out a draw if I feel the table is passive...but this seem less like semi-bluffing examples and more like maximizing equity advantages.

This is probably poor thinking, but I havent found that fancy plays are necessary at the limits I'm playing.

JinX11 · #8 01-06-2005, 11:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, that's what I think. Why do I always write books on here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your thoughts; books are helpful. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

JinX11 · #9 01-06-2005, 11:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. I think you want weak players that love to make a good laydown. Look for low WSD numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks - I think this is really good advice: I hadn't even thought about applying that stat to my game.

ErrantNight · #10 01-07-2005, 12:33 AM

two of the fundamental elements of the semi-bluff are:

1) the chance that you're already ahead (even if slim)
2) the chance your opponent might fold

i don't think you have either of these elements working for you in hands 1+3. I think you're likely behind and never going to fold your opponent.