Waiting 'till the turn

[billymonk]

Having just read SSHE for the first time, I was wondering if this is the proper application of waiting 'till the turn with a vulnerable hand?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

[MrWookie47]

Waiting for the turn was intended to be waiting for the turn to raise, not waiting for the turn to bet. Checking this flop is pretty darn terrible.

Also, I'd fold preflop.

[billymonk]

Ah, I see.

[mslif]

Why didn't you bet the flop?

[Saint_D]

Pre Flop: You are doing what I do wrong. Raising this here is iffy. One or two more seats in and raising this when folded to is a better plan. Just limp here. Folding might even be better. edit: Mr. Wookie says fold. Trust him.

Flop: I just don't like it. Your hand is very vulnerable. You need to protect it. You have some fold equity from your PF raise. Time to abuse it. You want to fold out anyone with a pure drawing hand. Heck you want to scare anyone with a T. Plus, if someone raises you, you can bail now for cheap.

How do you figure the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to be a "safe" card? Anyone that paired it is now beating you. Anyone with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s you let by for free on the flop now has a pot equity edge.

Since it's checked to you the two players before you are problably going to fold. So you can gauge a certian amount of safeness here.

I vastly prefer betting the flop here. It's a marginal situation though. Many times you find yourself in a marginal situation on the flop, it's because of a pre-flop mistake. Raising this flop was probably a mistake.

the rest of the hand Are you going to fold to a raise on the turn? I probably would.

What about when a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hits the river as one will around 50% of the time? Since you didn't bet the flop they are both scare cards for you now.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'd fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I've been raising it preflop from about MP2 onwards after limpers, trying to get position and a free turn if I want it.

[MrWookie47]

Versus a typical UTG limper, you're far too likely to be up against a hand I want to be up against to raise here. This is a debatable preflop raise UTG at 6 max, which is equivalent to having it folded to MP2.

[billymonk]

I didn't figure the J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to be a safe card, I just froze up, seriously. I am folding to a raise on the turn, and checking the river if an ugly card comes off.

Thanks for making me think.

[billymonk]

[ QUOTE ]
Versus a typical UTG limper, you're far too likely to be up against a hand I want to be up against to raise here. This is a debatable preflop raise UTG at 6 max, which is equivalent to having it folded to MP2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately I've been getting very trigger happy with the raise button, which is a huge contrast to not even two weeks ago when I was far too tight.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Having just read SSHE for the first time, I was wondering if this is the proper application of waiting 'till the turn with a vulnerable hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you never waited until the turn, you wouldn't be losing very much. Why? The times where you should be waiting for the turn are relatively rare compared to times when it is correct to play your strong hand fast.

The most basic advice is to look for BIG pots (8 SB on the flop is NOT-BIG... 15 SB on the flop is BIG). This will answer some 90% of the waiting for the turn questions.