Another hand from the 2+2 table last night

Nfinity · #1 07-23-2005, 01:20 PM

This is another hand from that 2+2 table last night. Jaran is open raising quite often, and Jopke is doing a fairly decent job of isolating him. I felt that Jaran's raising standards might be a little lower, and knowing this Jopke lowered his 3-betting standards.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Jaran raises, Jopke 3-bets, 1 fold, Nfinity caps, 4 folds,Jaran calls,Jopke calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Jaran checks, Jopke checks, Nfinity bets, Jaran folds, Jopke raises, Nfinity calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Jopke bets, Nfinity raises, Jopke 3-bets,Nfinity folds.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

I mainly posted this hand because I got questioned on my play. I really couldn't find a way to explain it right then, maybe I still can't to the fullest extent but I'm going to try anyways.

Pre-Flop: Like I said I thought they both had lowered standards in this situation. Since I haven't seen Jopke do anything particularly laggy I have to say that non-paired wise he would have to be holding at least an AT or better. I think as far as pairs go he might be able to pull this off with as low as a middle pair. I'm not exactly sure what I had Jaran on but the range was deep. I capped to represent a better holding and hope that some previous hands I had shown down would give me more credit. Unfortunately I know that both of them have watched me make plays of this sort before.

Flop: I don't think either player would donkbet overcards here, I don't believe it's the correct play. I certainly think Jaran would have bet an overpair here. Maybe even an underpair like TT. When it's checked to me I can't let them have a free card, and I have to maintain that strong 4-betting hand image, so I bet. With Jaran folding, Jopke's raise tells me very little. If he CR with 2 callers I know I have to get away, In this situation I could still be ahead.

Turn: This is the line that was commented on. The asked why I didn't simply call down. Well, here's why:

Calling down could win me the pot IF
he doesn't have an Overpair to my 77

and IF

He doesn't catch an Overcard on the river if I currently have the best hand.

It's going to cost me 2 BB to get to Showdown, why not put them both in right on the Turn. If by some miracle I improve I win an extra bet while at the same time charging more for jopke to draw if in fact he does have Overcards. In some extreme cases I could get him to fold the best hand (a middle pair better than mine)

Jopke's 3-bet tells me I'm toast. If this player can 3-bet w/ UI OCs then he is either a wayyy better player than me, knows way more about me than I know about him, or both. In any case if the above is true then it's time to find another game.

Sigh I need to find a better seat at these little gatherings.

Aaron W. · #2 07-23-2005, 01:30 PM

I think I 3-bet the flop and go from there.

If capped: Call and give up on the turn UI if he bets into you, otherwise bet-fold the turn.
If called: Bet-fold the turn, check behind on the river.

===

But since you didn't do that, I call-call against aggressive players. He's *NOT* going to fold if you raise him, but he might keep betting with a hand worse than yours. Raising the turn and taking a free showdown is best reserved for weak players who might fold to the raise, definitely will not 3-bet without the goods, and will almost certainly check on the river. Aggressive players don't fit that description.

@bsolute_luck · #3 07-23-2005, 01:31 PM

why didn't you 3-bet the flop?

there is a lot of IFS on the turn, but if you were that worried then you shouldn't have reraised him but waited til the river IMO.

edit: Aaron got his in before i finished mine. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Nfinity · #4 07-23-2005, 01:35 PM

Bwahaha.

You guys are amazing, Jaran had commented about 3-betting Flops when representing big hands in hand previous hand to this one, and I was thinking the same thing.

irishpint · #5 07-23-2005, 01:39 PM

i'd 3 bet the flop and see what he has to say about it. i really don't like the fold on the turn, however, but i wasn't around to play last night so i really dont know how the game was going down. However, from what I've seen it's impossible to put jopke on a range of hands, since these games are usually so LAG he could be playing a pair under your 77, and I really wouldn't be suprised to see UI overcards on this turn. In a normal game I could find a fold but I dont know that I do in a 2+2 lagfest w/ one overcard.

Nfinity · #6 07-23-2005, 01:42 PM

I figured Call-Call was more reserved for not so good players that may have you beat, but if not have such bad raising standards that they may be drawing to as few as 3 outs.

Not good players who, If not beating you, are drawing well to get there.

Fantam · #7 07-23-2005, 01:43 PM

I think your analysis is reasonable, despite not allowing you the opportunity to get lucky by making a set on the river.

However, I would not have felt comfortable about playing this way against 2+2 ers.

I would have considered that there was a reasonable chance that either Jaran or Jopke could have had a high pocket pair. So when Jopke c/r the flop and led out on the turn, I would have considered that I was most likely beaten.

I also think that it was less likely that Jopke had overcards than a high pocket pair, because of the rainbow flop. That would have made it less likely that he had hands like KQs. Also being the PF 3-better, I would have expected his range of hands to be narrower than Jarans, so that AK may have been the only overcards that he was prepared to play.

So at the risk of appearing weak-tight, having initially decided to take a chance with 77 against 2 possible overcard hands, I would have felt inclined to fold to the turn bet.

kapw7 · #8 07-23-2005, 01:44 PM

You had a hand that should go to showdown 100% of times when HU and you managed to muck it and pay the same money.
I can't think of any occasions that you can fold this heads-up.

Nfinity · #9 07-23-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'd 3 bet the flop and see what he has to say about it. i really don't like the fold on the turn, however, but i wasn't around to play last night so i really dont know how the game was going down. However, from what I've seen it's impossible to put jopke on a range of hands, since these games are usually so LAG he could be playing a pair under your 77, and I really wouldn't be suprised to see UI overcards on this turn. In a normal game I could find a fold but I dont know that I do in a 2+2 lagfest w/ one overcard.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a semi-serious game and it was plain to see that Grunch was doing what it took to WIN money.

irishpint · #10 07-23-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think your analysis is reasonable, despite not allowing you the opportunity to get lucky by making a set on the river.

However, I would not have felt comfortable about playing this way against 2+2 ers.

I would have considered that there was a reasonable chance that either Jaran or Jopke could have had a high pocket pair. So when Jopke c/r the flop and led out on the turn, I would have considered that I was most likely beaten.

I also think that it was less likely that Jopke had overcards than a high pocket pair, because of the rainbow flop. That would have made it less likely that he had hands like KQs. Also being the PF 3-better, I would have expected his range of hands to be narrower than Jarans, so that AK may have been the only overcards that he was prepared to play.

So at the risk of appearing weak-tight, having initially decided to take a chance with 77 against 2 possible overcard hands, I would have felt inclined to fold to the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
hehe, i didnt understand that this game was serious, i figured it for the lagfest they usually are. i'm out of my element here.

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