Checking my default line - 2 boring hands

[topspin]

First orbit. Checking my default play. The plan is to keep firing until I meet resistance, and call down if raised. Like?

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) handconverter.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets...</font>

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Same table, different villain. Still same orbit. I run g00t with starting hands.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) handconverter.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.75 BB

[zPro]

Hand #1 - I would probably fold the turn if raised.

Hand #2 - I would play this hand like I had TP. Bet flop/Bet turn. Free showdown or fold if he leads river.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I would play this hand like I had TP. Bet flop/Bet turn. Free showdown or fold if he leads river.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I have top pair I bet the river too.

[moot]

[ QUOTE ]
When I have top pair I bet the river too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, yeah.


The first hand I like so far, though I not sure if I'm willing to spend two more bets calling down if I get raised on the turn.

Second hand's fine. Whether or not I check or bet the turn depends on whether I feel I have a "showdown hand" (this is much more likely when I have an unpaired ace in my hand). I also consider fold equity, of course.

If I'm hoping to show-down something like ace high then I'll bet the turn and check behind on the river (and usually fold if bet into).

Otherwise I'll take your line and check the turn, fold to a a bet on the river (especially against a very passive player) (against an aggressive or crazy one I may still be calling this river).

[GrunchCan]

In reverse order:

Hand 2, yes. I check with outs on the turn too.

Hand 1, let's ignore the fact that the turn double-paired the board. That's a very uncommon scenario, whereas a paired flop is not. Let's say that on the turn, the board is T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. In this case, your line is standard. But, I question that the standard line here is actually best.

I've never been totally comfortable with the flop 3-bet in this spot. It doesn't make sense that the typical opponent would bet with a 76 (or something) on that flop when you are still going strong. But if you rasie (as the 2+2 default line says you should) and get re-rasied again on the turn brick, pot odds dictate that you call down. But if you knew on the flop that the villan was going to rasie the turn again, wouldn't that make your (edit) six bets going in on the flop &amp; turn -EV?

What if we stop &amp; go? On the flop, hero bets, opponent rasies, Hero calls. On the turn Hero leads. Is it even possible for the opponent in this case to raise again with just a 7? You have diagrammed trips or a big overpair so clearly that even a fish can see it. Even if he can't see it, the stop &amp; go will confuse tourists, and make them think that they are somehow now behind with the 7, and will just call. Only a hand that will beat you will rasie your turn stop &amp; go.

I don't know if my reasoning is sound, but this is something I've been thinking for a while now. Discuss.

[Bobby Digital]

These both seem pretty opponent specific. I like betting the turn in hand one but if he raises you probably have to consider a fold. What could he raise on the turn that you beat after you showed so much strength. Possibly a pair smaller than tens? two overs with a flush draw? Folding or calling down depends on the oppoenent. If he just calls I bet the river.

Hand two looks fine, I bet the turn against weaker opponents. Against most however the flop call indicates something on this type of board.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Second hand's fine. Whether or not I check or bet the turn depends on whether I feel I have a "showdown hand" (this is much more likely when I have an unpaired ace in my hand). I also consider fold equity, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, with ace-high I'm more likely to bet the turn figuring sometimes I'll be ahead (although this flop is fairly draw free). The main question I had here was if, having checked the turn, I need to call the river in case I induced a bluff.

[teajay]

I'm getting scared to answer these posts. I've been retooling my game and butchering some of my advice in the process.

Hand 1: Seems fine. I'd hate to give a free card to someone drawing. I'm probably folding to a raise though. Or calling and check/calling river. A read really would be good here, because if villain is known to not bet draws, then a check fold would be more appropriate. Which would anyone reading this choose against an unknown?

Hand 2: Have you thought about betting the turn and taking the free showdown if given the opportunity?

TJ

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1, let's ignore the fact that the turn double-paired the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is what IMHO makes the hand more interesting [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1, let's ignore the fact that the turn double-paired the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is what IMHO makes the hand more interesting [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, hehe. Thought you wanted to talk about boring hands!

In that case, I check the double-paired turn. I'll likely show this hand down as quickly as possible.