Anyone play this differently?

mmcd · #1 02-25-2005, 05:33 PM

Limpers are a couple of superloose clowns, sb is a rock of the 14/6 variety.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

Ian J · #2 02-25-2005, 05:36 PM

I don't see how you could do anything else vs. this guy.

mmcd · #3 02-25-2005, 05:39 PM

Is there there too small a chance of him having AKs here to make checking behind on the turn not a viable option?

aflaba · #4 02-25-2005, 05:40 PM

Strange play by SB. I don't see why he would check-rasie a pair of jacks or higher like that on the turn. It's not like he needs to protect it from very much. There are no draws.

I would call down because that is just a to strange play by SB. Can't say what he could be holding.

-----

If it were me I would rasie the flop and lead out the turn. Can't say why but that feels better to me

AviD · #5 02-25-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Limpers are a couple of superloose clowns, sb is a rock of the 14/6 variety.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sensing weakness here from SB, JJ or 99 seems most likely. Anything bigger I think he is betting out to get as many calls as possible on this board. UTG's cold call bothers me but being they are complete clowns I wouldn't immediately assume you are behind. Factor in your position and that you'll be closing the action when SB bets out again...and I think you certainly have showdown value. Maybe UTG has a 3 or a Q or maybe he has a draw...depends on your read but I think there is a reasonable chance you are ahead of SB. In fact, you could probably 3-bet this and take the free showdown, as you may get SB to fold his JJ to the 3-bet and you aren't getting a bet on the river out of UTG if he misses, and you will likely get checked to on the river if you 3-bet, so you are putting in the same number of bets to see the showdown.

mmcd · #6 02-25-2005, 05:48 PM

Does a 14/6 3-bet JJ or 99 out of the blinds in this spot?

(I can't say with any degree of certainty, but I kind of doubt it)

With that player, I think it's gonna be AA KK QQ or maybe AKs the vast majority of the time.

Paluka · #7 02-25-2005, 06:04 PM

I like the way you played it, I think the guy has queens.

AviD · #8 02-25-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does a 14/6 3-bet JJ or 99 out of the blinds in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many hands is this 14/6 over and how solid is that read based on those stats? JJ I see as certainly possible, 99 less likely but still possible.

[ QUOTE ]
With that player, I think it's gonna be AA KK QQ or maybe AKs the vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this board, I can't see him slowing down with AA/KK, nor going for an isolation CR with QQ. AKs quite possibly, but not from a rock and not on a turn that didn't improve him to more outs. I see a rock (weak-tight) often check/folding here more than check-raising with AK/AKs. If he truly is a rock, its possible he is fearing being outdrawn (for some odd reason) with AA/KK and is check-raising to make it two cold to the rest of the field, but again the board is drawless...so this is read dependent.

I still like 3-betting a rock (weak-tight) here and hoping he folds JJ, and he may very well believe he is beat with the Q on board. If not you have a hand with showdown value and there is a good chance it will be checked to you on the river as the rock (weak-tight) won't be likely to value bet his hand and UTG is likely on a draw and will either go for the CR or check his miss.

But if you are convinced you are beat and have no chance of pushing the rock off a better hand, and do not want to put any more money into this hand, then your fold is fine...but then I ask, why are you asking? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

mmcd · #9 02-25-2005, 07:27 PM

but then I ask, why are you asking?

Weak Tight players don't think like you or me. He is checkraising the turn because he almost certain he has the best hand, not because he wants to limit the field with JJ, or pull a fancy move with 99.

I don't think my fold was at all wrong considering my opponent's stats. (2kish hands, but I don't think you need a helluva lot more than that to get an accurate reading of VPIP and PFR).

My question was more like: Am I actually ahead here often enough to justify not taking the free shot at a T? (If the river was a blank and it went bet-fold-fold, I'd probably have to look him up though, right or wrong)

I have to believe that most players that tight and passive won't be 3-betting 2 limpers and a solid players raise out of the blinds w/o AA KK QQ.

AviD · #10 02-25-2005, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but then I ask, why are you asking?

Weak Tight players don't think like you or me. He is checkraising the turn because he almost certain he has the best hand, not because he wants to limit the field with JJ, or pull a fancy move with 99.

I don't think my fold was at all wrong considering my opponent's stats. (2kish hands, but I don't think you need a helluva lot more than that to get an accurate reading of VPIP and PFR).

My question was more like: Am I actually ahead here often enough to justify not taking the free shot at a T? (If the river was a blank and it went bet-fold-fold, I'd probably have to look him up though, right or wrong)

I have to believe that most players that tight and passive won't be 3-betting 2 limpers and a solid players raise out of the blinds w/o AA KK QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that answers alot of your questions, you have narrowed him down to AA/KK/QQ here...

so to answer:

[ QUOTE ]

My question was more like: Am I actually ahead here often enough to justify not taking the free shot at a T? (If the river was a blank and it went bet-fold-fold, I'd probably have to look him up though, right or wrong)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to ask what your reason was for betting the turn and what you planned on doing if you got raised. I know you can't afford to give a free overcard here and have to bet for that reason, but you have to anticipate getting raised (either by the cold caller having a 3 and slowplaying or by SB having a big hand). It seems like that was your line, and you stuck to it by folding.

You are getting 13.5:1 on your turn call closing the action, which isn't enough to draw to your T...and you are questioning if it'd even be good if he has QQ.

If you call and didn't hit the TT and it went bet, fold...and the action was on you...do you have to look him up? I think there is no point in continuing on the turn (as you didn't) if you are confident he has AA/KK/QQ. You don't have the odds to hit your T and are reasonably certain you are behind...so fold the turn as you did.

The more I think about it and the more we discuss it, the more I like the fold. If you are going to showdown I like 3-betting the turn and taking the freeshown rather than just calling down. (when it comes back around you'd be getting 18.5 if SB capped and UTG called, which still isn't enough to draw to your T and I doubt he is capping without QQ here so you have a fold then) If you aren't going to showdown...then there is no reason to continue on the turn after getting CRed.

That's my take, good discussion! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
You have any additional thoughts?

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