early stages against total idiots

[pindawg]

[ QUOTE ]
both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play these hands everytime (not everytime, depending on position, actions preflop, etc..) in level 1, and a lot of other ones much worse with good success. I would actually say that if you're folding these hands everytime in level 1 then you suck at tournament poker. That is not to say though if you want to play them successfully you must have somepostflop skill.

[JustPlayingSmart]

Against the idiots on Party, you need to try to create as many opportunities for them to give you their stacks as possible. Thus, KJs and AJs should not be folded preflop in unraised pots.

[2Fast2Furious]

agree - this is auto-limp early on - fold to any raise except for maybe mini

[Sam T.]

These specific hands are folds. People love, love, love JT, so if the flop is JTx, and villains go nuts, someone is on two pair.

More generally, you don't want to donk it up, but the point that you have to get the fishs' chips before someone else does is very important. Figure out who the idiots are at the table, and make it your busienss to get in hands with them with any reasonable holding. They don't care about kickers much, so (to take your KJ example) top pair, king-kicker is probably good. While some argue that TPTK is not a hand with which to go to felt, that is simply not true in the first hour of a $20+2.

Also, when you flop big, remember that they don't understand stacks and betting, so get them in on the intallment plan. They don't realize that if you bet half your stack you are pot committed, so bet whatever you think they'll call.

In these huge tournaments, your goal should not be to get to the first break with your stack in tact, but to get there with 2x your starting stack.

[dmk]

Is this thread a joke? Are you guys seriously arguing the preflop action on both of these hands? How about you pay attention to the streets that matter here.

I don't think hand 1 is necessarily an easy fold. I'm not sure why you included hand 2 in this post or why this would have to be a total idiot. Maybe he has KQ/KJ? Dunno, but I'm not sure why its included given the title of the post.

Regarding hand 1, what range do you think BB has? Also, do you think you call w/ A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Ax here?

[stoli]

About including the second hand.. I was including it just because It is indicative of the the problem i am having. I get check-raised a large amount or all-in and I don't believe they have it necessarily but also don't want to risk everything with a marginal holding or a coin-flip situation.

I guess the main thing I'm talking about is that it is
these check-raises and overbets are hard to interpret. From a good player a lot of times it means they want you to go away. And against a lot of weak players they think they are making a value bet and they do it with the nuts rather than extracting money with pot sized bets.

Thanks for chiming in about people answering the relevant questions in the post, I appreciate that. As for hand one It was like the third hand of the game so it was difficult putting him on a range without ever seeing him play a hand before so I had to believe that he had two pair, the straight, or a draw that will come in a decent amount of the time. I mean i wasn't prepared to put my whole tourney on the line with top pair on against a coordinated board..


Thanks for the help and all of your past posts they have helped tons!!

[pindawg]

Hand1, i guess the bb made a good bet. Theres no way you can call this without super reads. Wait for a better spot to take this donkeys chips.

Hand 2 becomes an easy fold. I like the continuation bet, but I would have made it 80 or 90.

[mlagoo]

people have different playing styles, but to call this dude a donk for playing KJ and AJ for a raise is stupid. it's called playing a loose aggressive style. many people do it with a great deal of success, in online MTTs and in deepstack tourneys.

As for the preflop action -- in the first hand, if you're going to raise, you need to make it a meaningful amount. Raising to 3xBB in level 1 makes every limper and the BB have implied odds to call you hoping to stack you. My general rule (stole it from someone else) is 4-5xBB + 1BB for each limper.

Limping with this hand isn't bad, folding is bad. The ability to play marginal hands is what makes a decent tournament player good. You only really get two levels in an online tournament where you are given a significant amount of freedom in post-flop play. Take advantage of them. Folding this hand in an unraised pot preflop is criminal.

On the flop I probably fold there, but I will call that silly bet in some tournaments depending on the buyin. A lot of people will make that bet with AT or QJ or a lot of pocket pairs, because they love to put preflop raisers on a whiffed AK (the only hand they beat).

On the second hand, I don't like the raise from EP with AJs. Just limp. One of the tricks to playing marginal hands is to not get involved with them (and especially not to build a pot with them) OOP, because they become much harder to play.

On the flop, it's an easy fold. Nothing exciting here. You made a CB, he raised you (bluff or not), hand over.

[lotus776]

agreed, a style you might consider is incredibly tight for the first 5 or 6 rounds and gradually loosening up, releasing many hands and not risking a big portion of your stack

[lotus776]

also, seriously try playing in more expensive tournaments where there are less idiots. Seriously, you're gonna have more idiots in $5 rebuys than in $20 tourneys. just something to keep in mind