About overcards (long)

[Jonny Melon]

This is the tougher question, but I am raising the flop here. Here's my default line:
--If I am 3-bet, I'm folding the turn UI.
--If I am called, and bet into on the turn UI, I'm also folding.
--If I am called, and the turn is a blank, I'll bet the turn if checked to.
--If the turn is a scare card, and I'm checked to, I'll check behind.

Think about your turn line when you call the flop. It becomes much cloudier, as your opponent is much more likely to follow through with a turn bet on a semi-bluff than if you raised. You can make a case that your equity is dratically altered on the turn, depending if the card is scare/blank/improvement, and I think sometimes smooth calling is correct here, esp. if I think my opponents have a read on me and I need to mix it up a bit. But as a default play, I'm raising.


Jon

EDIT: When I wrote this, I thought you were HU, with position, and didnt' see MP3 was still in. I still think this is an interesting topic, regardless.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Think about your turn line when you call the flop. It becomes much cloudier, as your opponent is much more likely to follow through with a turn bet on a semi-bluff than if you raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, I think calling here is rarely correct, just because the reasons you stated. If he gets it HU he will often bet his draw again, and we can't call. Thus, calling the flop was bad since we can't call the turn, we hadn't odds to call the flop only to see the turn and we won't get checked to often enough.

[ QUOTE ]
--If I am 3-bet, I'm folding the turn UI.
--If I am called, and bet into on the turn UI, I'm also folding.
--If I am called, and the turn is a blank, I'll bet the turn if checked to.
--If the turn is a scare card, and I'm checked to, I'll check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree about the 4th here. If we raise the flop i think we need to bet ALL turns. We can fold easy to a check/raise. (EDIT: ok, I might check if the turn was 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in hand 2)

[waynethetrain]

"By betting the turn you're likely to charge their draws and buy a free showdown with a hand with showdown value."

The problem is when I am out of position. If I lead and check, I usually don't get the free showdown.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
"By betting the turn you're likely to charge their draws and buy a free showdown with a hand with showdown value."

The problem is when I am out of position. If I lead and check, I usually don't get the free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right. I feel I'm getting a showdown for free pretty frequently even if we are OOP, though. And when they bet I think the fold is pretty safe, unless I have a read that indicates I have to call. Add to that you take the pot at the turn pretty frequently also.

Another thing that makes playing OOP tougher is that our opponet(s) have usually been calling 2 cold preflop. This most often means they've raised their starting hand standards. Pretty often we'll be up against a PP who will call down if no scare card hits (and often even if scarecards hit). When we have overs we don't like this (as opposed to when we hold an overpair or hit the flop in which case it means $$$ for us, just wanted to say those suckers in general lose money by playing the way they do [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]). Anyways, this means we'll have less folding equity both on the flop and turn. A preflop coldcaller don't usually fold the flop to 1 SB. Still I think betting the turn and check/folding the river is the correct line most often.

[ep510]

Hand 1 without the diamond seems a lot like Hand 2. The backdoor straight draw (another 0.5 outs) doesn't add much to hand 1. No offense, but I think you're being inconsistent with your thoughts Nick.

[ep510]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Nick:
In Hand 2, just a thought: You are more likely to be ahead on a draw-heavy board, than you are on a draw-free board. You shouldn't fold here.

Jon

[/ QUOTE ]
Call or raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like raising for the reason mentioned by Jon. On a coordinated board, opponents are more likely to bet a draw into you than on one that isn't coordinated. By raising, you make it expensive for the player behind you to call on a draw (you can also get him to fold a non-top pair) and get a better idea of what the initial bettor has depending on his flop/turn response to your raise.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 without the diamond seems a lot like Hand 2. The backdoor straight draw (another 0.5 outs) doesn't add much to hand 1. No offense, but I think you're being inconsistent with your thoughts Nick.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how my line would have been if I didn't have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I might still raise

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, as I said, I'm not sure what to do without my Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. But there still are differances even though they're slim. The back door straight is worth 0.5 outs (counting a little pesimistic), the pot is bigger, I'm more likely to be up against someone betting his draw for value since the field is larger in hand 1, I have no players yet to act after behind me in hand 1 and all players in hand 1 have checked making it more likely they'll also fold facing 2 cold. There are differances and these are reasons why I might raise hand 1 and not 2 even without the backdoor flush. I'm not sure all my reasons is correct, but they're at least consistent.
EDIT: And if we assume I'm behind I have outs to call in hand 1, but not in hand 2. In both cases raising is better than calling. Assuming I'm behind is a false assumption, but counting outs and looking at the pot still have merits...

After discussions later in this thread I have come to realise I maybe should raise hand 2 also, but I still put higher value in hand 1.