Marginal hand #2 Play or no play

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero??

Well, that 3-bet was a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero calls.

*Showing hands where you make marginal calls and then hit a nice draw does not prove that making the marginal calls is correct

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Showing hands where you make marginal calls and then hit a nice draw does not prove that making the marginal calls is correct

[/ QUOTE ]

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Showing hands where you make marginal calls and then hit a nice draw does not prove that making the marginal calls is correct

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew that sooner or later someone would bring this up. I thought it would be post #3 so it was "sooner". For you gamblers out there the "under" is a winner. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Don't worry. They won't all be winners.

Oh, and I don't think I'm trying to prove anything. I thought these types of hands would lead to some lively discussion and maybe help some of those people who have a VP$IP of 12% and complain they can't beat the .50/1 limit.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'm trying to prove anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you. And I believe that the discussions garnered in the last couple days have been good for the forum. But I also think you tend to disregard advice even in the face of mathematical proof. You do this to your own detriment. It takes a lot of energy to write a long &amp; thorough EV evaluation of a marginal situation. And while I'm sure some lurkers &amp; thread contributors may benefit from the analysis, the OP's general refusal to accept such an analysis is also a little frustrating.

[wyoak]

fold PF but people said that.

that flop was about as good as it gets for you. flush draw and double gutshot....you could cap this if you think it'll get you a free card if a blank turn falls or if another player was in. Heads up you don't quite have the equity to cap solely for value.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the things I've noticed in your posts is that you dismiss other people's arguments out of hand. I don't think this is the best way to use this forum to improve your game.

*Everyone* in this thread (except you) is in agreement that this is a fold preflop. While nobody is arguing that it's a huge leak, you might want to ask yourself if you're making a systematic mistake in preflop hand evaluation, or whether we're all wrong.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the things I've noticed in your posts is that you dismiss other people's arguments out of hand. I don't think this is the best way to use this forum to improve your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called a debate. I reply with my opinions and you replay with yours. Doesn't mean I'm right and doesn't mean you're right.

If everybody always followed the majority opinion then things would be pretty boring. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. My idea is to offer a differing viewpoint to make you think about these types of situations.

You are dealt a lot more marginal hands than you are ultra premium hands so you have more opportunity to win or lose money with them. If you take the time to read my opinion and think about it a little and then decide it's baloney that's fine. At least you had a different viewpoint than yours to compare with.

[ QUOTE ]
*Everyone* in this thread (except you) is in agreement that this is a fold preflop. While nobody is arguing that it's a huge leak, you might want to ask yourself if you're making a systematic mistake in preflop hand evaluation, or whether we're all wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I DO appreciate all the comments and compare them with my own thoughts. I then decide which course I want to follow. I WILL NOT follow a path because everyone else does. If I'm wrong then I have no one to blame but myself.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the things I've noticed in your posts is that you dismiss other people's arguments out of hand. I don't think this is the best way to use this forum to improve your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called a debate. I reply with my opinions and you replay with yours. Doesn't mean I'm right and doesn't mean you're right.

[/ QUOTE ]

No... that's an empty dispute. A debate has content that goes beyond opinion. So far, you have put forth opinion while most everyone else puts for an argument.

[ QUOTE ]
I DO appreciate all the comments and compare them with my own thoughts. I then decide which course I want to follow. I WILL NOT follow a path because everyone else does. If I'm wrong then I have no one to blame but myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you take this position. There have been past disputes where the "other" was adamant that his way of playing was right and refused to even accept the notion that there might be a mistake.

[Messy Harry]

Is a raise on the flop the best play? I'd be interested to here some responses.

I know it builds the pot for when you hit your draws and might buy you a free card on the turn. But either the better has a set and is going for value OR he's onto your free card play and making you pay for it. Either way, it drove out the other two callers who could have contributed 2 more BB's to the pot if you hit either of your draws on the turn. Then you could raise the turn.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
Is a raise on the flop the best play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly agree with the flop raise. If you knew that MP2 was going to immediately 3-bet and fold out the other two players, then obviously you would want to just call, but Hero didn't know that at the time. (Remember, MP2 is LPP. They don't do a lot of 3-betting).

Basically, Hero is raising with his flush draw for value. The fact that he might get a free card is just gravy.