Official Martial Arts Thread

[Topflight]

However, I also don't believe that many grappling moves would take much time against untrained joes in a bar. You could probably do some damage very quickly before his friends jump you.

And where are your friends, why would you be in a fight with multiple people and no one to back you up.

[Blarg]

Yeah, going to the ground can be great if you're really competent, but the ground sometimes has broken glass on it, and if the guy's friends are around, you're pretty much dead once they start kicking you while you're pretzeled up with your opponent.

I did jiu-jitsu for a few years, and studied classical wing chun for a bit less than a year, and did wing chun do, which is a modification of classical wing chun style that Bruce Lee developed, interpreted a little by one of his first students back in Bruce's Seattle days, James Demile. It adds the backfist, a natural for Wing Chun, and fencing lunges and more footwork, and does sticking hands with a little more forward energy than classical wing chun does.

It was great training in the combination I did. I trained jiu-jitsu during much of the time I trained wing chun and wing chun do, and it was a very strange mix, which is one of the good things about it. The jiu-jitsu style enabled me to surprise the wing chun and wing chun do guys in sparring with the occasional lock or throw, as well as kick, and the incredible hand work in wing chun brought my hand skills up to a more realistic level where there was a much greater chance I would be able to block someone's punch to initiate a throw in the first place, as well as launch much more effective hand strikes of my own. One of my best friends had done a lot of training in thai kickboxing, so he brought a lot of that to the sparring mix our wing chun do classes.

Anyway, I got third level black belt in jiu jitsu and the chinese equivalent of black belt in wing chun do, though there aren't really belts in kung fu; that was more put in to keep the Americans happy, who quite frankly are often a bunch of lazy babies(myself included). I had a great time, got in unbelievable shape.

I saw some cool things, like the one-inch punch that Bruce Lee developed with James Demile and passed on down to Kimo Wong, who was my wing chun do teacher in Hawaii. Kimo, like Demile, did it much better, and differently, than you see Dan Inosanto or most others do it, with barely a move in his body. He was a little guy, about 135 pounds, but with a flick of his wrist even while his knuckles were already on your body(a sort of "no-inch" punch I guess), could send you literally flying backwards in the air for six feet or more. I had this done to me numerous times, because we always begged him for a demonstration. It took him years before he gave in and showed us, because he had gotten sued once for collapsing someone's lung doing it in a demonstration. Even though it was traumatic to your body and a little dangerous, we always begged him to do it again so we could watch. It was hilarious to see its effect on people, because it was bewildering both to experience and to see. Kimo's body movement was pretty much imperceptible; there was no wind-up or push-through or any noticeable preparation. He could talk casually before and after it; he wasn't tense or worked up at all. And then you just literally flew. You didn't stagger or skip back a few steps -- you went into the air and landed some distance away, still going backward at a terrific clip and either rolling or falling onto your back. It didn't seem to make sense. It was so unexpected that you often came up laughing. His control was very precise, and he placed a thick phone book on your chest so he could exert good force without hurting you. This was a guy who could pick which brick in a stack he was going to break, and leave the others intact.

What was really funny is the people who would have it happen to them who literally could not believe it. It completely blew their minds, and they wound up saying things like, oh, well, you took a big wind up that time, and such. There was one guy who always wanted to have it done, and always denied how it happened. The rest of us would just laugh, because we had all seen it, and been through the same total inability to believe it had really happened to us that the other guy went through every time.

It was great doing sticking hands in the wing chun classses, and gave you an incredible amount amount of control once contact was established. It's very hard to tangle with a wing chun man once you've established a "bridge" to each other's bodies and limbs. I never got to the stage of doing sticking legs, though, and though I could kick fairly well myself because of years of training before I came to wing chun and wing chun do, my overall ability to defend from long range developed more slowly than my hands, and by the time I left Hawaii, where I took jiu-jitsu and wing chun and wing chun do, my hands were far and away what I was best with.

I do recommend wing chun and its modifications very much, as it's a very scientific style, believing that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It doesn't waste a lot of time on forms; even classical wing chun has only three. Attack and defense is simultaneous, not a one-two one-two thing as in most classical karate and kung fu, and blocks, parries, and strikes are designed to be as economical as possible given the limitations of the human body, not according to esoteric principles or patterning after real or imagined animals. Six months of training in wing chun is enough to give someone notable hand skill and practical fighting skill, whereas that length of time training in other arts is just basically a warm-up. I say that having studied other arts and getting a third degree black belt in one of them. Wing chun is just extremely economical and efficient, and easy to learn. It's not one of those "don't ask questions" styles , and it makes a lot of sense. Just like it's foolish to use your fist to punch someone's feet, you don't kick people in the head; movement is extremely linear and economical, and because of the use of balance and momentum, very little actual force is used. The system was designed by a woman, and fits their needs to use brains over brawn rather than be strong enough to overpower everyone with sheer brute force.

It's actually a "thinking" style as well as a practical one. Anyone who has done its sticking hands exercises, or the similar ones in some other styles like tai-chi, gets a chance to see how amazingly deep and profound the control of mind and energy can be. Things like that are fascinating enough for a lifetime of study.

[Topflight]

I've seen some wrestlers do "their stuff." It isn't the 30 minute rolling around on the ground kind of thing that you see in UFC. Just like a boxer doesn't take 13 rounds to take someone out in a bar, like it can in the ring.

A grappler could take out multiple opponents very quickly and very effectively.

Also, a striking type fighter could very well end up rolling around on the ground and kicked in the head by the dudes buddy, and he would not be on the ground by choice and probably already be getting his ass kicked.

[astroglide]

even if you're not dealing with a buddy if anybody sees you CHOKING somebody in a fight they're going to think you're killing them and try to do something. i would think an arm or leg bender would be more appropriate but i would also think you'd have to be well above student level to see and capitalize on an opportunity like that (and do it quickly). still grappling skills are simply awesome.

[raisins]

I've found Judo to be a lot of fun. It's a good work out, improves balance and teaches you how to fall safely. Unfortunately not many dojos put much emphasis on teaching ground work, which is a part of Judo as envisioned by Kano.

As far as "effective" goes, check out W.E. Fairbairn and what he taught the O.S.S. during WWII. It is available in his book _Get Tough_; it might be available online for free. A lot of emphasis on a few simple strikes. Doesn't look like it as much fun to practice or play with long term though.

Then again I'm not sure anything compares for "effectiveness" with a CCW and a person skilled in accessing it at the appropriate times.

regards,

raisins

[tolbiny]

It doesn't take more than a second or two to snap someones are if you know how.

[Blarg]

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Boxing is the best fighting skill to learn if you want to win fights in the real world. Remeber boxing is about getting in a ring and fighting. If you box for long enough you will get much better at absorbing the intiall shock of a direct hit (by a fist at least) this will give you a massive edge over opponents.


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I agree that boxing is good training for real world fights, but it is not enough by itself. If you do not know how to kick, you are putting yourself at an extreme disadvantage. You can f*ck someone up a lot more and from farther range with a kick than a punch.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of boxers have gotten their asses kicked on the street. It's a great art, but you have to train yourself NOT to do all kinds of things that are actually very good to do, like stomping people's feet, slamming them onto the ground in a throw, kicking, etc. It's not that you can't do those things, but what you train at becomes a filter that it gets hard to defend or attack outside of, since your instincts are all so heavily channeled by experience and hard training. That's why many martial arts competitions have rules changes at the last minute -- the organizing body has its fighters practice by certain rules that are different than what the tournament rules are supposed to be, and then the tournament rules get changed to THEIR rules, leaving everyone but the home team feeling very unsure what to do and inhibited. It's a dirty old trick used from time immemorial -- it's very hard to do differently than what you're trained to do, especially in the heat of the moment, when so much is instinct.

Boxing is a fantastic sport, and the conditioning and regular taking of blows is one of the best parts of it. But though you can kill someone with it, it's still a sport, with all kinds of rules. The street has no rules, and it's not a boxer's arena at all. He may excel there, and he may not. In real life, even the champions have gone down hard sometimes on the street.

[theBruiser500]

awesome post blarg, very interesting.

"Attack and defense is simultaneous, not a one-two one-two thing as in most classical karate and kung fu, and blocks, parries, and strikes are designed to be as economical as possible given the limitations of the human body, not according to esoteric principles or patterning after real or imagined animals"

those don't hold true for the kung fu i learned.

[BeerMoney]

Karate died two years after Kartate Kid.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
And where are your friends, why would you be in a fight with multiple people and no one to back you up

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes your friends aren't around or are chickensh** cowards, and you don't know who every stranger's friends are or if or when they're going to jump in. (Of course, neither do any of your friends). Go in a strange place and you may think some jerk is alone and find out everyone there has known him for years and it's almost random who might jump in at any time and start helping kick your ass.

You really don't have any control over things on the street, and it's crazy to think you do. That's why it's so much more dangerous than any arena, ring, or sporting situation. You don't even know if the beating is going to stop when you're knocked out, or if you're going to get fish-hooked, maimed, or killed even when the fight is obviously over.