Raise pocket 9's in EP?

[jason_t]

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Better to win little than lose big.


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This is ridiculous. If 80% of the time I win 3 BB or 10% of the time I win 25 BB which is better?

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Better to win little than lose big.


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This is ridiculous. If 80% of the time I win 3 BB and 10% of the time I win 25 BB which is better?

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WTFBBQ, Jason? You are better than this, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misread/didn't read my posts. This sentence has a specific context.

OP was lamenting the possibility of raising with 99, getting it short handed, then winning, as opposed to raising 99, getting many opponents, and winning. I'm simply advising one to be happy winning a modest pot here. Disagree?

[MJL]

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1) I see that you play 2/4. If you hit your set, it is not true in general that you will not get action. If you get 5 callers to your raise then this is perfect. Some will get a peice of the flop some will have overs, and with the bigger pot, they will hang around for more. If you expect 5 callers to your EP raise, then I say raise 99 a lot, if not always.

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No I usually play 6/12 10/20 live 5/10 online. that was another poster. I was using the thread to point out those who recommended raising preflop (although they haven't commented on this one).

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2) You should be happy with this result, too, as it is profitable. 99 holds up well against 1, 2 opponents. Better to win little than lose big.

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I am okay with this but not happy. the difference could be 5 to 10 BB.

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please explain why you'd want to raise if you want 5 callers. i would think that if you're expecting 5+ callers, you'd want to limp, though raising is not a bad play. 99s wouldnt' play so well against 5+ cold callers, no matter how loose they are IMO...

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Quote:
Better to win little than lose big.




This is ridiculous. If 80% of the time I win 3 BB and 10% of the time I win 25 BB which is better?

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Exactly!

I have stated my reasoning for limping 99 in a full ring and have not closed the door to raising but have not figured out why so many are advising it as a general rule. I want to better understand this adivice being given and see what I am missing.

[7stud]

I'm currently reading "Small Stakes Hold'em"(Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth), and the authors seem to struggle with your question too. In their discussion of medium pairs(99, 88, and 77), the authors say,

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From early position you should usually limp in.(p.66)

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They say you either want to play against 2 or 3 players or 5 or more players. Against 2 or 3 players an unimproved pair can win. Against 5 or more players, you are hopping to hit a set and win a big pot. It's approximately 7:1 against hitting a set on the flop, so you have to have enough players to be able to extract more than 7 times your preflop call when you make your set. They recommend only raising with medium pairs when you are in late position and there is exactly one limper ahead of you.

However, in their preflop charts where they recommend the proper action, the author's say to raise with 99 in middle or late postion in a tight game(p. 80) and raise with 99 in early position in a loose game(p. 82).

[7stud]

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why would you want to raise if you believe your raise will get 5 callers?

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As far as I can tell, you wouldn't. Not only do you lose more money when you don't hit a set, but since you also need more than a 7:1 payoff when you do hit a set, raising means you need to extract more bets from your opponents to reach that hurdle. If you call, say, $3 and get 5 other callers, you still need 3 additional $3 bets to make the hand profitable($3 to 5x$3 + 3x$3 = $3 to $24 = 1:8). If you raise to $6 and get 5 callers, then you need 6 additional $3 bets to make the hand profitable($6 to 5x$6 + 6x$3 = $6 to $48 = 1:8).

[MJL]

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I'm currently reading "Small Stakes Hold'em"(Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth), and the authors seem to struggle with your question too. In their discussion of medium pairs(99, 88, and 77), the authors say,

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From early position you should usually limp in.(p.66)

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They say you either want to play against 2 or 3 players or 5 or more players. Against 2 or 3 players an unimproved pair can win. Against 5 or more players, you are hopping to hit a set and win a big pot. It's approximately 7:1 against hitting a set on the flop, so you have to have enough players to be able to extract more than 7 times your preflop call when you make your set. They recommend only raising with medium pairs when you are in late position and there is exactly one limper ahead of you.

However, in their preflop charts where they recommend the proper action, the author's say to raise with 99 in middle or late postion in a tight game(p. 80) and raise with 99 in early position in a loose game(p. 82).

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This is exactly my understanding. This is why I question all of the posters who have advocated a raise in EP. They give the advice as if it is obvious. I am open to learning so I will not dismiss the idea with out hearing their points.

[Nikademus]

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They say you either want to play against 2 or 3 players or 5 or more players.

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So does this also mean that 99 shouldn't be played against 4 opponents? Seems silly. Why not say, 99 can be played against any amount of opponents.

I treat 9-9 as I would 5-5 and up, for the most part. If I hit a set with them, I usually win a decent pot, if I don't, I lose. I'm pretty new, and still working on various way to play different hands, but I don't like to raise these types of pocket pairs in EP. Mainly, due to the 7:1 ratio of flopping the set. It's very hard for me to call any type of bet with overcards on the board, when I miss a flop such as this. If I was a better, more experienced player (especially after the flop) I'd probably raise more. I think I get better overall results just limping, not only because I'm saving a raise 6 of 7 times, but also because when I do hit the set, many players with TP will put me on some type of draw, because I didn't raise, and oftentimes that leads to them betting in order to push me out. Remember, I suck, so don't listen to me.

[WillMagic]

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1. Why you raise.

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Because it's a strong hand with solid preflop pot equity.

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2. Circumstances to make it right or wrong.

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If UTG and UTG+1 limp in front of you, and you are UTG+2 with 99, I don't mind a limp.

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3. How do you proceed with a multiway pot on the flop when over cards are present.

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I play poker.

Will

[7stud]

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This is exactly my understanding.

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Unfortunately, my only understanding at this point is that the authors need a better editor. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Have the author's weighed in on this apparent contradiction yet?