Don't Read If You've Already Read MM's Hand To Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Rick:

No problem. Go ahead.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SKP:

A good player knows to bet these hands and so does. A great aplayer also knows to bet these hands, but will still mix up his play just enough so you can't be as sure.

It's more important for the AJ to bet than the QJ. That's because if the AJ is the best hand, it's easier for it to get beat if you let a free card drop off. That's not as true with the QJ. Do you see why?

Best wishes,
Mason

[John Feeney]

As I understand it this very good player is in some middle position, having come in behind one limper. Now my hold'em game is extremely rusty, I'm sure, so I could be out of touch with how to play. But would this guy very often have played an ATo here at all? And wouldn't he have raised preflop with AJo in that spot the great majority of the time? And wouldn't he have raised with ATs or AJs the great majority of the time? Therefore, counselor, I move to (mostly) drop AJ and AT from these proceedings. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[DanZ]

I think there were 2 early limpers, but used the same preflop logic to eliminate ATo, ATs and AJs. So I think AJo is the only possibility of the A high hands. Mason says this hand would definitely bet, leaving only Qxs for a calling hand, but I can't see checking these here either, so I am confused.

[John Feeney]

Well, I don't know. Mason wrote:

"Three players limped in including a very good player in the middle."

That sounds to me like a player limped, the VGP limped behind him, and the third limper came in behind the VGP. With only one limper ahead of him, and being in a middle position (?), I'd think he'd generally raise with the AJo. If he was actually in an early position, then yeah, he might limp more often.

[mike l.]

so now im even more confused, but not about where vgp was sitting. things i want to know are:

a: why is your hold em game rusty?

and

b: do you think mason played the turn correctly? dont worry about being fired, he doesnt read all this gibberish we post down here.

[skp]

Well sure...if AJ checks, any card that does not pair the board on the turn may vault someone ahead of AJ. With QJ, there are way fewer cards that could put someone in the lead and in fact, there are several cards that could make someone a second best hand.

Having said that, there are other reasons to bet QJ i.e. other than protecting your hand which may not apply to AJ. Also, almost every player I can visually imagine in teh games that I play in would bet QJ after 4 checks and 1 person left to act. Very few players will bet AJ against 5 players. They would rather take the free card. Whether that is right is debatable. I am just simply making an observation as to how most players would play AJ/QJ here.

...and to John Feeney:

hey bud...good to see you participate...my understanding all along was that there were two limpers and then the VGP followed suit. I don't see calling with AJ or AT in this spot as being unusual. If he was the second limper, then the chances of him having AJ/AT go down as you state. Also, the chances of 77 go way up as there would then be two players left to act behind him on the flop.

If one reads all of Mason's posts in his thread, the clear impression one gets is that the VGP was to the immediate right of Mason. His flop call closed the flop action. This means that when he checked, there was only Mason left to act which IMO makes 77 unlikely. I think it's a decidedly bad play to check 77 against 5 opponents when you only have one opponent left to act.

[John Feeney]

Ah yes, I think you're right about the player's position. I hadn't read all the posts. I agree that the guy should bet 77 preflop - unless he had some strong reason to think Mason would bet. But I do think there are a lot of habitual set-checkers out there, even among pretty good players, though maybe they really ought to be reclassified. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[John Feeney]

"why is your hold em game rusty?"

On hiatus. Concentrating on being a dad and stuff right now. That's why you don't see me in Oceanside.

"do you think mason played the turn correctly? dont worry about being fired..."

Oh hell, I don't know; I think maybe we could have used a little more info on this one. I think a check or a bet could be right depending on details that we either didn't get, or that I haven't read, as I haven't read all of the original thread. And I'm glad I don't unequivocably favor a bet. I mean Mason fired Sklansky. You think he'd hesitate with me? [img]/forums/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img]

[John Cole]

Rick,

If good player calls turn bet, if there is a turn bet, A7h.

John

PS. I'm sending you an email to give you Andy's email address.