I fold JJ pf

[Hoss1193]

I'll lead by saying I'm not sure what I think about this. Fold is probably correct play, but just to play devil's advocate, I think argument in favor of calling would go as follows:

1. The set potential. After all, is coldcalling a cap with JJ against 4 players really that different from coldcalling a single raise with 55 if there's 5-6 players already in?

2. Small possibility of a quality OESD. KJ or QJ, most likely to beat you with a higher straight, seem unlikely hands for any of the 3 opponents, so any made one-card straight has excellent chances. I don't like the look of a flush draw, however, because it's way too likely that the J isn't high enough to be best.

3. There is a significant chance that JJ is the best hand, even if all players involved are playing solidly, something pretty close to the SSHE charts. UTG, even if a TAG, could have raised with something like KQo or AJs. UTG+1 might have TT, 99, or AKo as easily as AA-QQ. Even UTG+2 may have AKs. This is all assuming that all three of these opponents (you said UTG+1 and UTG+2 were unknown) play that solidly...I'm sure every one of us has seen many players who have capped with low PPs, any suited ace, KTo, etc.

4. In this situation, JJ seems to have the "information advantage" that Ed discusses in GSIH (relating usually to smaller PPs); either the flop hits you or it doesn't, and how to proceed is pretty clearcut. If you hit the set, raise. If you hit the OESD, call. If A/K/Q falls and there's action, fold. If no overcards come, call for one bet, and fold to a raise.

5. Finally, in this case, you've got position. That alone may be the deciding factor in weighing a marginal call/fold decision here.

All in all, the already-big pot and the huge implied odds (this smells like a 20+ BB pot by the end) seem to clearly justify a call.

Thoughts?

[aK13]

This is similar to the call or fold QQ when capped situation. I think we have odds to call here.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
Boring. It gets more interesting when you're thinking about calling or capping a 3 bet PF with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the button, I'm pretty sure capping >>>> calling.

[lautzutao]

Uh, what type of game is this? What limit? What kind of players are behind you? Are they bad enough that they would coldcall 4 cold? If we hit a set here we're going to win 30+BB yes? I'll piss away 4SB for this kind of action. A shame nobody else will.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, what type of game is this? What limit? What kind of players are behind you? Are they bad enough that they would coldcall 4 cold? If we hit a set here we're going to win 30+BB yes? I'll piss away 4SB for this kind of action. A shame nobody else will.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we're playing JJ for set value, we need to be playing 22 for set value, and I'm just not ready for that kind of commitment yet.

While it's true that we only need to make up 40sb and 12sb are already in (the 3 people that are going to see a capped flop), this actually hurts our implied odds. People are going to slow down with pocket pairs against further aggression. We are very unlikely to get our opponents to put another 14BB into this pot without our set being second best.

[lautzutao]

I see your angle, and am saying that if we get additional callers this is an autocall for me with any pair yes. Only thing that sucks is we can't see what is happening behind us.

We might even get odds to peel off a turn card as well.

EDIT* We're almost positive what these 3 players have in front of us...might as well lay the cards face up on the table. So why not use this information?

[car ramrod]

If we call the problem then comes up with a low flop. You then have an over pair, and it is hard to get away from it, so you lose more than you should. You have to play for set value and implied odds if your playing it. I may call, I may fold, depends who's behind me and how the table has been playing.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
If we call the problem then comes up with a low flop. You then have an over pair, and it is hard to get away from it, so you lose more than you should. You have to play for set value and implied odds if your playing it. I may call, I may fold, depends who's behind me and how the table has been playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck.

How does so many people fold. Sure if overcards come your done with it, but what about when they dont.

TT vs AK vs AQ?? You could easily be miles ahead

Call.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
It's easy to get away from, that's what is so beautiful about this situation. We're only playing for the set or we muck.


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy if the flop comes AQ5, but what about 832 rainbow, are you folding to a bet?