20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have just folded it pre-flop and that would have ben that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't give Mike a lot of credit for calling with such a hand pre-flop Andy. It's a slight -EV decision. However this decision can be "repaired" as I like to call it based on:

1. How loose/poor the players in this game play post flop.
2. How much ground Mike can back on this -EV play pre-flop with his post-flop play. The donkier the opponents, the more EV Mike can gain back.
3. How well Mike can read his opponents and how poorly can Mike opponent's read Mike.

In this particular game/hand it appears that with an EP raiser still getting 5 callers, the game must appear good enough that perhaps playing K3 suited has some warrant.

Mike doesn't need a power hand to really blow his opponents away. If he trusts his reads enough, and is aggressive enough with this marginal holding on this particular flop then imho he can maximize his chances of winning the pot and that is the key thing to look for here.

Folding earns him nothing. Playing passively is bad poker in this spot against other donkeys. Playing aggressively to maximize his chances of winning and knocking players out, while sacrificing the extra SB or BB is what I prefer to see.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting 3.5-1 OoP Preflop. This should be an easy fold. What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike L. is an excellent post-flop player. 3.5-1 OoP is plenty for him to call with here. He will win some big pots and he has the ability to get away from the hand early.

For people who don't play well after the flop, this is probably a fold.

[lil feller]

While most of the posters in this thread seem to hate the pre-flop call, given how good this game seems and how well you play post flop I think this is an easy call.

The real debate seems to be when to make a move, and I guess it really depends on the players. Is there any chance of selling that you flopped trips and getting the bettor to fold? from the sound of it, the answer is no, in which case I think c/c the flop and the turn is good. On the river, however, the plan really depends on what kind of "bad" the bettor is? Is he laggy bad, weak/tight bad, loose passive bad? It matters, alot. If he's laggy, i'm leading this river, and expecting at least one A-high to call me, before the action gets to the bettor. If he's weak/tight I c/c, as you did, and if he's l/p it would depend on what I know if his value betting standards. If I think there's any chance that he'd bet the turn w/ a 6, or something like 88, i'm leading the river. If he needs a 4 to bet, i'm c/c and letting him show it to me. Oh, and if I lead and get raised, i'm calling, unless its 2 bets cold to me.

Very interesting hand, imo,

lf

[DeeJ]

This is similar to the Oscarpgm post somewhere else today. I think you can call the river just about here. With Queen high, probably not (are there 2 or 3 left at the river? If there's 3 I'm far more likely to give up).

[mike l.]

so anyway i called and barfed in my mouth when the next guy overcalled behind me. guy who was betting the whole way said "i missed" and showed like jack high or some crap, i showed my hand and overcaller showed K3h for the chopped pot. there was one heart on the flop fyi.

so there ya go. it wasnt my king outs i needed to worry about cleaning up on the flop with a standard c/r, it was my trey outs! silly me.

[andyfox]

I define "anything" as something you can win with. I define semi-bluffing as betting with a usually mediocre hand that probably is not best at the time but, if called, has an opportunity to win to a probable winner.

[andyfox]

Nice post.

IMHO, mike would do well to pay more attention to starting with the best cards than to how much ground he can "repair" post-flop. It's hard to play the kind of power poker you so concisely and eloquently talk about with K-3 from the small blind.

Folding earns him something if calling is -EV.

[Net Warrior]

What I don't understand about the hand is this. You played K3s, I presume, mainly for the flush possibilities. You played it because the players already in were bad players. So, you get you flush draw and with 2 bad callers, you don't raise the Flop, AKA jam. With 2 limpers it's about break even to jam a flush draw and if those guys behind you are bad too then it's likely you'll get some coldcallers. When you consider that raising might clean up some outs as well, I just don’t understand your Flop overcall. So, what am I missing?

[mike l.]

the definition and concept for semibluff starts to fall apart lately right here:

"a usually mediocre hand"

and

"probably is not best at the time"

btw it was tommy who first got me thinking about the idea of "semibluff" as a concept being faulty.

"I define "anything" as something you can win with."

good to know. so now that weve established youre using that word incorrectly, it'd be best if you just go ahead and stop using it.

[mike l.]

"So, what am I missing?"

nothing. not checkraising the flop here is terrible poker. i was playing bad yesterday.