Overcard challenge

[jgorham]

I only like this flop raise if you are planning on taking a free card on the turn.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give it a go....

I have AsJs in the CO. UTG +1, a tight passive player limps. Fold to LMP loose passive type who limps, Hero raises, BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for 9.5sbs: 2h 2s 4d.

BB checks, UTG bets, loose passive calls, Hero raises expecting both UTG and MP fish to call.

I'm putting the tight passive EP player on a mid-PP, giving me 6 clean outs, not to mention my bd straight and flush draws. Call it approx 8 outs due to the paired board. LMP fish has 2 overs and doesn't like to fold on this sort of raggety flop.

I'm taking a free card on the turn and folding the river u/i. I'm raising EP's river auto-bet if I do improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

[Nate tha' Great]

Okay, this one I approve of. Clearly it may be worth raising when there's some chance that you have the best hand, especially if you also have the chance to protect that hand.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
hero is BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG+1 14/7/2 opens, 2 loose-weak-ish MP and CO coldcallers, hero calls.

flop:

6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP bets, CO calls, hero raises...

probably buying myself outs by folding UTG+1's overs. Check-folding anything that isn't a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9, T, Q, K on turn. Leading a K or Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't count because we didn't raise preflop. FWIW, I don't think it's worth investing two bets here once an overcaller is already entangled in the hand.

[party36master]

You have AK in MP2.

Preflop:
UTG+1 raises, you reraise, MP3 coldcalls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop comes J93 rainbow. (4 players, 8.3 SB)

BB checks, UTG+1 bets, I raise.

I'm not going to provide a ton of imaginary reads here, since I think its standard. Please tell me why I'm wrong.

I don't think I'm ahead. The pot is too big to fold.
I raise because I want something like A3s to fold, to pick up some more outs. Getting 11:2, that's not enough to call w/A3s.

I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

Assuming BB and MP3 fold, on the turn, I bet if checked to, and check through the river if A or K doesn't hit.

Standard?

[mscags]

I think it is. It always amazes me how easy it is to get a free card.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a free card play that makes our hand look like a big pair. Tight passive players aren't 3 betting me here often.

I don't however have a ton of confidence in betting the turn into 2 players. Clearly I bet if I improve.

The question is what do I do when the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand I played yesterday:

Laggy (near maniac) opens on the CO. Hero 3bets A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button, both blinds call. SB is a little loose preflop, but decent postflop (good handreader), BB is weak tight.

Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to CO who bets, hero raises.

Edit: Intentions

This really depends on how many players stick around on the turn (and who they are). Mostly the intentions here are to raise a better A, or even two overcards to my 9, which should be profitable based on how large the pot is at this point.

I think I am checking through most turns that I don't improve if given the possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know about this one. The board is dry and the pot is proteted so maniac is more likely than usual to have some kind of hand here. Plus he's also more likely to 3-bet than usual since he's aggressive. I also don't know that our draw is strong enough to be worth paying two bets for, even if we get a free card.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is what do I do when the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely betting that card. We've got both plenty of legitimate equity and plenty of bluffing equity so I'm betting and calling all raises. I'd probably also bet a king that didn't give us the flush draw, FWIW.