Just a bad beat right?

[Ed Miller]

I check-raised the flop to, as the mantra goes, to charge as much for the flush draw as possible.

This "charge the flush draws" mantra has annoyed me for a year and a half now. As ramjam accurately noted, there is virtually no situation on the flop where you are in a multiway pot and raising to "charge the flush draws." When the flush draw gets multiway action, it makes money on the bets going in just like you do (at the expense of those calling with weaker made hands and weaker draws).

I'm not 100% sure where this idea first appeared, but I think I know. It does not appear in 2+2 books... but it does appear almost word-for-word in a popular book on low-limit hold 'em of suspect quality.

This single line has caused more confusion on this forum than any other "concept" in poker:

1) Apparently you have concluded that if you are "charged too much" with your flush draw, you should fold
2) Others have concluded that it is correct always to play a flush draw passively to avoid being "charged"
3) Still others put in silly 3-bets and 4-bets on the flop (in situations where their winning chances are dubious) because they are deathly afraid of "failing to charge the flush draws." Ironically, the 3- and 4-bets are often better for the flush draws than the player making them.

Because pots are so big before the flop in limit hold 'em, anyone who flops ANY flush draw is usually correct to see both the turn and river almost no matter what. Virtually the only situations where it is correct to dump the flush draw is if it is CLEAR that someone already has you drawing dead. This is if the board is DOUBLE (not single) paired on the turn and there is heavy action, or if there are trips on board. You have to be quite sure that you are drawing dead, though, because the pot is typically very large. This gives you a massive overlay to draw to your nine outs. Folding when you "think he might" have a boat can be very expensive.

This means that flush draws are very easy to play... and play against. If you are playing a flush draw, you usually should play aggressively for the first bet or two on the flop, for various reasons. Otherwise, you are calling all bets until the river. Thus, when you are playing against a flush draw, he is your companion to the river. If it gets there, he wins. If it doesn't, you win. There is nothing you can do to get him out, so don't worry about him. Your job is to protect your hand from the people with bottom pair, gutshots, backdoor draws, etc. whom you can force out.

Everybody... for my sanity... please stop "charging the flush draws." It is not a helpful concept, and you guys interpret it in funny ways that lead you to make significant errors.

[Tosh]

Well said major.

[Sarge85]

Excellent, and I certain have a better understanding. Your reply should be a stand alone post somewhere.

Thanks for responding.

[Dylan Wade]

[ QUOTE ]
Ironically, the 3- and 4-bets are often better for the flush draws than the player making them.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

[chief444]

To avoid confusion for anyone unsure about this concept...This is absolutely true but does NOT mean that 3- and 4-bets are bad for the player making them if they do have the best hand or even another good drawing hand that would give them the best hand. It just means that it is good for both you and the best flush draw. It is bad for the others calling down with 2nd best hands and few outs to improve.

It is almost always a bad thing for you to let weaker hands see a free card unless you have a legit slow-playing hand or are sure you can check/raise.

[harboral]

This is a very clear point that has just been made - the ONLY time you can chage a flush or straight draw is when you are head-up, and even then it is close. I believe this point is stressed in Doyle's book - in the NL section, and many readers in the early 1980's (and maybe now also) read the NL and the Limit sections and got some ideas crossed. If you are playing NL and there is a flush or st8 draw out there, you make a bet at least 2x the pot size to leave poor odds for the other players in the pot with you - this does not happen in Limit.

[William Wilson]

I have to question this "charge the flush draws" annoyance. Let me know if I'm wrong here.

Doesn't this pertain to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker? If you raise so your opponent is paying too much to ride out a flush draw, then you've gained. That's TOP, if I'm not mistaken.

If I'm playing 5/10, and the pot is $20, and I have top pair (say the Aces from an earlier example) UTG on the flop against a possible flush draw on the button, I'll raise because the pot will have to be $50 for him to correctly call the $10 bet.

If I just call, he's got great odds to call the flush and could possibly raise to get a free card if everyone else calls.

What's wrong with this strategy? I'm not trying to be argumentative ... I really want to know if I've misunderstood.

[William Wilson]

As Kong pointed out privately (thanks), a raise UTG is impossible, so my above scenario must be adjusted accordingly.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise so your opponent is paying too much to ride out a flush draw, then you've gained.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is correct but I believe his point was (please feel free to correct me when I'm wrong) that you can very rarely make it enough bets in limit hold'em to make it incorrect for the flush draws to call. Pot-limit or NL is a different story but I agree that this concept is focused on too much in limit. If you have the best hand you almost always do want to "charge" all drawing hands but that doesn't mean you will make it incorrect for them to call. Also as was pointed out, if it is a multiway pot (with 5-6 players for example) all bets going into the pot are probably helping your opponent with the nut flush draw more than you with top pair. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't bet into him as it is +EV for both of you and -EV for the other callers playing lower pairs, top pair weak kicker, worse flush draws, etc.

[Ocho]

Thank you major!!! Excellent post.
I agree with Sarge this definitely deserves to be a stand alone post, if not added to the 2+2 essay list.