Tells and Patterns

[SheridanCat]

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I feel one big thing that helps begginers like myself out is know tells and how to use them.


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I have to actually disagree with you here (except as noted below). I really don't think trying to recognize tells is all that useful for most players. Perhaps you might find one helpful in a close situation, but rarely will they be a determining factor in whether you're a winner or a loser.

That said...

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1. Staring at you - a person who stare at u after the flop is usually just trying to look tough and get u not to bet.


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Yeah, classic strong = weak. Or, it could just be that the guy watches a lot of poker on TV and thinks that's what you do.

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2. Betting patterns can be huge tells


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I wouldn't put betting patterns in the same bucket as tells. Betting patterns are integral to the game, while tells are physical actions by an opponent that give you indications of his strength/weakness. If you read the definitive work on tells, Caro's Book of Poker Tells, you'll see that he doesn't address betting patterns. The manner in which a bet is made is treated, but he doesn't talk about coming up with hand ranges based on betting patterns themselves.

In my opinion, betting patterns are probably the most important thing a beginner needs to understand in trying to read hands. In that we agree. But they're not tells.

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P.S. - anyone know anything about facial twitches, or expressions?


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These types of "tells" are the least useful, in my opinion. They could mean anything, usually. And if you see them, there's a pretty good chance they fall into the strong=weak/weak=strong category of tells.

Remember that any tell you pick up may or may not be a real tell. The person in question may just act differently than most people or she may have read Caro's book and knows how to toss off a fake tell now and again.

Anyone interested in the subject should read Caro's book. It gives a much more comprehensive treatment than we can possibly give the topic here. However, do not take seriously the dollar values that Caro gives to the tells he talks about. I don't know why he bothered to do that, as it's total poppycock.

Regards,

T

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2. Betting patterns can be huge tells


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I wouldn't put betting patterns in the same bucket as tells. Betting patterns are integral to the game, while tells are physical actions by an opponent that give you indications of his strength/weakness. If you read the definitive work on tells, Caro's Book of Poker Tells, you'll see that he doesn't address betting patterns. The manner in which a bet is made is treated, but he doesn't talk about coming up with hand ranges based on betting patterns themselves.

In my opinion, betting patterns are probably the most important thing a beginner needs to understand in trying to read hands. In that we agree. But they're not tells.


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I agree with one exception and that is fold thresholds of a drawing weak hand. From experience I have noted that many players will continue those same patterns when they have a weak drawing hand. Certainly it makes no since to bet out or even call holding a weak drawing hand. For example many players will toss low pairs if the pre-flop bet is large. They will also many times toss them if the flop didn't yield good results in their favor and someone bets out. This is why you want to make those players pay to see the cards on the board. So betting threshold to induce a fold from any given player I still see as a tell of sorts. It tells me where to limit my bet for results when that player is weak and conserves my cash in the event I don't improve or hold the absolute nuts.

Now I think of micro stakes games and have to acknowledge the fact that almost any bet you make will be a value bet since elimination bets usually do not work well at those stakes. You bet and the fish come running.

This also is an area I have seen faked by a player throwing in a nice call and folding so as to mislead. The point I am trying to approach here is the overall trend of the player and not just an ocassional observation.

I can actually see your side as well on this Sheridan, so maybe this is a player perception issue for me and you are right. In either case this has vastly helped my game.

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P.S. - anyone know anything about facial twitches, or expressions?


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These types of "tells" are the least useful, in my opinion. They could mean anything, usually. And if you see them, there's a pretty good chance they fall into the strong=weak/weak=strong category of tells.


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I said in a later post here to watch out for fakes unless it is something which cannot be controlled and then mentioned a throbing juglar. Even that can as Sheridan points out be the result of other influences and not allways the cards.

You will be far better off paying attention to the game instead of someones OREO (tell). LOL had to throw that cookie in, it is a good movie.

Monty

I like this one :

When a player is yet to act and looks at his chips, he's hit the flop and is thinking about a bet. Most people will do this subconciously.

or :

when the flop lands three to a colour, and a player takes another look at his hand, he didn't make the flush (although he may have one card).

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think the obvious one are the most reliable.

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I like this one :

When a player is yet to act and looks at his chips, he's hit the flop and is thinking about a bet. Most people will do this subconciously.

or :

when the flop lands three to a colour, and a player takes another look at his hand, he didn't make the flush (although he may have one card).

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think the obvious one are the most reliable.

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i like to look at my cards whenever i flop a flush lol. it gets people to think i am on the draw [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

and the looking at your chips tell is something just about every player does. even the best ive played with do it subconsciously. thats one thing ive trained myself not to do. if i hit a flop ill usually gaze at the board, like most do when they dont hit it. ive came along way since i started playing, my opponents cant read me like a book anymore lol.