"Culture of Life"

Great thread from a great republican.

There certainly is a culture of 'you must have the baby you can't afford, but don't expect us to help you raise it'.

[lehighguy]

I'm not a republican, but you don't really care.

Anyway, the circumstances of the birth having nothing to do with whether or not murder of the child should be illegal. We don't let people kill 1 month old kids, and if we believe a fetus is alive then the same principle applies.

There are only two reasons to support abortion:
1) You don't think the fetus is alive.
2) You think it is alive, but you think murder is ok if it benefits the state/society.

To be honest, I think most abortion rights people, especially the ones that support partial birth abortion and such, believe in the second. It would certainly explain earlier poll results about how people on this forum thought it would be ok for the government to forcibly sterilize poor people.

However, in a society based on liberty which respects individual rights such beliefs seem barbaric to me. You can't murder or sterilize someone simply because you think thier existence is "inconvienent". If you want to support that line of reasoning, at least do it upfront, rather then bullshitting around about womens right's or whatever other straw men you might use to avoid this key issue.

P.S. No one forced anyone to have a kid, I don't recall any government sponsored insemination. But that is really beside the point where the "right to life" is concerned, since the circumstances of the birth are completely irrelevent.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
There are only two reasons to support abortion:
1) You don't think the fetus is alive.
2) You think it is alive, but you think murder is ok if it benefits the state/society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you think a fetus is something in between a life and a glob of cells, but you think that the rights of the mother to control her body outweighs the potential for life that is the fetus.

[lehighguy]

I think the key is that you think it isn't alive, or for that matter anything of importance. Whether you place a fetus above inanimate objects or not, it is certainly far below the status of a life. Essentailly placing you in category one.

Or put more simply, if you are asked the yes/no question is a fetus alive, you answer no.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Or put more simply, if you are asked the yes/no question is a fetus alive, you answer no.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you have no idea what I think on the issue.

Second, one can maintain that a fetus is a form of life that is lesser than someone who has been born. While this form of life has value, the value of the rights of the mother outweigh this life.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Second, one can maintain that a fetus is a form of life that is lesser than someone who has been born.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is what most people intuitively/subconsciously believe, whether they admit it/realize it or not.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but there's something relatively incongruous about the belief 'abortion is murder' and the way most behave who hold that belief -- so much so that I'm inclined to say the belief isn't valid.

[lehighguy]

In our culture, the way it is set up, there is nothing inbetween being human and being an animal. There is no 3/5th of a human being (we got rid of that).

At some point in process it becomes a life. The second before that moment it isn't a life. I don't know when that occurs, and I doubt anyone does, but that's how I see it happeneing. All at once, not a little bit at a time.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume this is what most people intuitively/subconsciously believe, whether they admit it/realize it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If you listen to the positions/rhetoric of the different sides of the abortion debate, this is the position on life that is shouted out with a quiet whisper. If a fetus were a full-life (same value as a child just born), pro-lifers would not allow for exceptions in the case of rape, incest. If a fetus were no different than a toenail (i.e. just a collection of cells) pro-choicers wouldn't say that it is a difficult/moral decision for a woman to make --- the reason it is a difficult decision is because the fetus is different than a toenail.

[lehighguy]

Something is either human or it isn't. It is a yes or no question. Either I'm human or I'm not.

If potential life falls short of humanity then it must not be very valuable. As Sklansky pointed out in his post there will soon exist medical treatments that can remove the fetus from the womb, and the entire womens right issue will be removed. Then we will have to come face to face with the fact that people just want the children not to exist, and it has very little to do with a woman's body.

Not that I'm too opposed to that. Personally, I think it is a form of murder but I'm ok with it. The less people the better. But at least I'm honest about it.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
There are only two reasons to support abortion:
1) You don't think the fetus is alive.
2) You think it is alive, but you think murder is ok if it benefits the state/society.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is grossly oversimplified -- as it leaves out the possibility that abortion is clearly ending life (that is, abortion kills a live fetus) but that it isn't equal to murder.