A Refutation of Determinism

[hmkpoker]

No, no, no, no, no.

First off, if determinism is true, we have to rethink our position on justice. Perhaps the correct thing to do to a criminal in some situations is try to correct him (imagine that!) rather than brutally punish him.

Morality, as you point it out, is archaic and useless. As a useful tool, morality provides a few guidelines which, if followed by each social member, enable all of them to live a happier life. That's the only useful purpose it has. Morality has to be based on determinism (or its more correct alternative); not the other way around. The physical theory is more fundamental.

I believe in determinism, yet you don't see me socking the dealer. That will get me thrown out of the casino or worse. I'm aware of that, and that awareness helps cause me not to do something stupid.

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Believing in determinism may lead to choices that are practically irrational (drawing to a the low end of a straight), as well as morally deplorable (socking the dealer when your straight hits and you lose to the high end).

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Wow, did you pull that right out of your ass? DETERMINISTS DON'T DO THIS! It DOESN'T make you insane or angry or deadly or nihilistic or any of that. I don't know why people think determinism is dangerous, and I think it's because they can't think about reality clearly.

[stackm]

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No, no, no, no, no.

First off, if determinism is true, we have to rethink our position on justice. Perhaps the correct thing to do to a criminal in some situations is try to correct him (imagine that!) rather than brutally punish him.

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If determinism is true, we don't need to (nor can we) rethink our position on anything. What are you correcting the criminal for? What did he do wrong? And how can you "try" to correct him? You'll either do it or you won't, but you certainly won't have any say in the matter.

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Believing in determinism may lead to choices that are practically irrational (drawing to a the low end of a straight), as well as morally deplorable (socking the dealer when your straight hits and you lose to the high end).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, did you pull that right out of your ass? DETERMINISTS DON'T DO THIS! It DOESN'T make you insane or angry or deadly or nihilistic or any of that. I don't know why people think determinism is dangerous, and I think it's because they can't think about reality clearly.

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I didn't say determinists would do that - I said they might. I also didn't say determinism makes you insane or angry or deadly or nihilist, but if you believe in determinism, what difference does it make anyway? It doesn't make any sense to be angry or nihilist because it doesn't make any sense to be anything; nothing matters because everything is what it will be, and that's it.

[hmkpoker]

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nothing matters because everything is what it will be, and that's it.

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Let's think of it this way:

Let's say I develop a robot that looks and behaves remarkably like a human being. I program this robot to become successful. The robot has the intelligence and motivation to pursue a path of success. It goes to school, invests wisely, works hard, and eventually becomes very successful.

As I see it, humans are much the same way, except that our "programming" is a little more abstract. Some people have developed different motivations than others, as a result of experience/environment. Some people have been conditioned with defeatist attitudes, and believe that their efforts are worthless, so as a result they don't try. Some people have been conditioned with more aggressive approaches to life, so they believe they have to work hard to get what they want, and as a result, they do.

[purnell]

First, your post is not a refutation of anything.

Second,

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I didn't say determinists would do that - I said they might. I also didn't say determinism makes you insane or angry or deadly or nihilist, but if you believe in determinism, what difference does it make anyway? It doesn't make any sense to be angry or nihilist<u> because it doesn't make any sense to be</u> anything; nothing matters because everything is what it will be, and that's it.


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is why I am fond of pointing out that one cannot be entirely rational.

[snowden719]

you have a much too broad understanding of what the term refutation means

[purnell]

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you have a much too broad understanding of what the term refutation means

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Please elaborate.

[purnell]

OK, then, I will. Perhaps I used the word in too narrow a sense.

Refute:
1. To prove to be false or erroneous; overthrow by argument or proof: refute testimony.
2. To deny the accuracy or truth of: refuted the results of the poll.