do we have free will?

Are you just playing God's advocate?

I like the Supreme Chemist (I think it's called) argument against (the Christian) God existing and humans having free will. It goes something like this:

P1) God is omniscient
P2) God is omnipotent
P3) God created the universe, all of its laws, humans, their DNA, and every subatomic particle jiggle that ever was or ever will exist in this universe.
P4) God knew the outcome of of his creations before creating them (from P1)
P5) God could have changed any single particle jiggle in such a way as to change any outcome he could possibly want to create (from P2 & P3).
C1) God created everything exactly as he did, knowing beforehand the exact outcome, with the power to have created it differently if he so desired.
C2) God is ultimately responsible for everything in the universe, including our very actions (that he foreknew and could have created differently if he wanted to).

We only have freewill in that we can't predict our own actions. But, God can. We are his creation. Don't blame the chemistry experiment that explodes when you knew it was going to explode before you combined the chemicals.

(A presupposition in my argument is that we do not have souls that exist outside of God's foreknowledge. If we do, then P1 is incorrect -- God is not omniscent. If he does foreknow the composition of our souls, and he created them, then those souls would still be able to be changed in accordance with God's omniscient omnipotent desires prior to creating them.)

[hypermegachi]

suddenly Presbyterians/Calvinists don't sound out of line anymore...

[hmkpoker]

I have no problem with concluding that there is no free will based on your premises, however they specifically establish God as omnipotent whereas the OP's don't.

[hypermegachi]

i'm surprised that there hasn't been any religious defence for having free will, especially for Catholics since free will in such an important part of their doctrine.

i'm not trying to single you guys out, but i'd like to hear the argument for us having free will, given that God can see the beginning and end of time, thus predestining everything that we do.

and to take it one step further, i'm sure Catholics also believe that God is omnipotent...but if that were true, again, how can we have free will if God at any moment can choose to change it?

[purnell]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

This was done to death a while back, so I'm just gonna watch.

[hypermegachi]

you wouldn't happen to have a 2+2 link, would you?

[purnell]

It was before the forum split. I get no matches.

[purnell]

[ QUOTE ]
you wouldn't happen to have a 2+2 link, would you?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...7289&page=
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...page=&vc=1

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

There is no conflict between divine foreknowledge and freewill. God's knowing that you will freely choose to do A instead of B does not mean that you did not freely choose to do A.

[imported_luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no conflict between divine foreknowledge and freewill.God's knowing that you will freely choose to do A instead of B does not mean that you did not freely choose to do A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the conflict arises not from a voyeur god but from intercession. "Don't let him hurt my child" removes free will from the kidnapper if god acts on the request through the kidnapper. Or if he guides the surgeons hands during an operation, etc.