Another wait till the turn hand

[Paxosmotic]

Two reasons,

1) The much smaller pot would allow me to pretty much blast away the entire field with a raise on the big bet street. Anyone who dares to call with a gutshot at that point is just handing me money.

2) UTG hasn't done anything but bet. We may not even have the best hand here. I can find out now for $1 or I can find out later for $2, and I'm really quite impatient about that sort of thing.

[numeri]

[blind post]

With a smaller field, I just call here because reverse domination is a beautiful thing. With this big field, though, our pair of 8's is not likely to hold up if all 5 see the turn. I think the raise to clear out SB and BB if they have some ragged overcards is worth it. Not only that, we have a pretty strong draw, so it's almost (but not really) a raise for value. Who knows, we might even see the river cheaply.

EDIT: Edited to say that we have a pretty strong draw - if we're behind. We could certainly have the best hand at this point.

[ QUOTE ]

1) The much smaller pot would allow me to pretty much blast away the entire field with a raise on the big bet street. Anyone who dares to call with a gutshot at that point is just handing me money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why are we worried about protecting againsts gutshots in a small pot. They are calling incorrectly anyways. On the flop we need to knock out players or we have no chance of winning this pot.

[ QUOTE ]

2) UTG hasn't done anything but bet. We may not even have the best hand here. I can find out now for $1 or I can find out later for $2, and I'm really quite impatient about that sort of thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is irrelevant. Maybe he has a high pocket pair maybe he has overcards. That's poker. If we don't think our hand is good often enough to make a stab at this pot worth it, then we should just fold the flop.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is irrelevant. Maybe he has a high pocket pair maybe he has overcards. That's poker. If we don't think our hand is good often enough to make a stab at this pot worth it, then we should just fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are behind we have odds to continue. Folding the flop is crap.

[milesdyson]

yeah, wtf? calling is MUCH better than folding this flop.

That's kind of the point that I'm trying to make. Pax is saying he's raising the flop b/c he doesn't want to put two bets in on the turn if he's behind. And I'm saying that's not a good reason. I'm just saying in general, if we have decided we are going to try to protect our hand in our big pots, we shouldn't be afraid to raise our hands for this reason. If we are, we are weak tight pussies and should fold.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
That's kind of the point that I'm trying to make. Pax is saying he's raising the flop b/c he doesn't want to put two bets in on the turn if he's behind. And I'm saying that's not a good reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

His point has validity. You do realize that if UTG leads into us on the turn the probability that he has AA-99 begins to increase while the probability he has AK-AT or KQ decreases?

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
That's kind of the point that I'm trying to make. Pax is saying he's raising the flop b/c he doesn't want to put two bets in on the turn if he's behind. And I'm saying that's not a good reason.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not raising the turn does not mean folding the flop, do you see why?

[ QUOTE ]
If we are, we are weak tight pussies and should fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
... [censored] impressive.

[TredWel]

I'm a chronic wait-for-turn kind of guy, but even I'm raising the flop here. Laying 13:2 is enough to give gutshots and Ax bad odds. Plus there are practically no clean cards to come on the turn to warrant a raise then.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's kind of the point that I'm trying to make. Pax is saying he's raising the flop b/c he doesn't want to put two bets in on the turn if he's behind. And I'm saying that's not a good reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

His point has validity. You do realize that if UTG leads into us on the turn the probability that he has AA-99 begins to increase while the probability he has AK-AT or KQ decreases?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm his lead on the flop basically tells me nothing.

But I think that is besides the point. We have a VERY vulnerable hand in a big pot and raise will likely eliminate two players. We HAVE to raise on the flop!

My point, and I realize that I didn't word it correctly in the first post, is that I don't like his reason for not raising. Say we are in a HUGE pot with 6 players. We have JJ. The person to our right was the PF aggressor and might have AA. Let's say in this case a raise on the flop won't protect our hand, but a raise on the turn might. Then we raise on the turn!

Pax said he wants to find out cheaply if the guy has a higher pocket pair. And I think in a big pot that is an irrelevant consideration.