back to basics 4 give me pros and cons. - Page 2

12ozLongneck · #11 08-03-2005, 02:25 PM

I'm betting out and hoping that MP2 either (a) likes his hand enough to push things or (b) feels like it's a good time to get cute. I'm also going to bet out on the turn as well since MP2 isn't scared to try to push the rest of the table around when the bets get bigger and I'm totally cool with that since I have the nuts.

Kumubou · #12 08-03-2005, 02:32 PM

Bet out, they do not know you have quads.

Checking after 3-betting pre-flop looks really shady -- either you are an extremely weak-tight player, or you have a monster (checkraising would basically announce to the table that you have a jack... or two). The maniac is going to raise anyway, the fish is going to call regardless, and hopefully MP2 has something decent and thinks you are full of [censored].

If you could get MP2 and UTG+1 to go to war with each other, that would be hot. (Although a tight player sticking around on a drawless board would look really suspicious.)

-K

nomadtla · #13 08-03-2005, 02:39 PM

I think by leading the flop it's even less likely that people will put us on the Jacks. If it turns into a war I let them do it for me. If they all just call your flop bet keep leading hoping one of them catches. I just think betting makes them less likely to put you on Jacks. esspescially if you slow down to their agression and just become Cally McFisherson

GTSamIAm · #14 08-03-2005, 02:45 PM

Why are you posting this? It's extremely rare.

Just keep betting.

nomadtla · #15 08-03-2005, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you posting this? It's extremely rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand is rare but the situation is not. Very strong hand on a drawless board. With a maniac to your right. How do you not scare the fish.

crownjules · #16 08-03-2005, 03:14 PM

I am so betting this flop. Your opponents probably won't give you credit for a single jack, let alone flopped quads. More likely AA/KK/QQ/AK. You'll likely get a raise from UTG bluffing at having a J, and MP2 and CO will hopefully come along for just two small bets. I'd probably just call, waiting for the turn to bet again and then go crazy hogwild to get the most bets from these guys.

tiltaholic · #17 08-03-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this series of 'back to basics' posts are fantastic. Please keep them coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. i'm not trying to be special or anything. currently i am attempting to solidify my play at limits where up until now i was too chickens[/i]hit to venture. (read- 3/6 and 5/10). my not overly extended (i'm not whining about it - i realize it could be longer) breakeven strech at 2/4 has ended in rather "high variance" play. i win big then i lose big...whereas earlier i didn't fluctuate so much. while the end result is positive, i am worried that in my quest to break out of my funk i have forgotten fundmental principles of my old game. My fear is that some self-doubt, potential weak-tight play coupled coupled with my recent funk and swingy sessions have caused me to push too hard, get overly tricky, or just plain suck.

I know people in micros tend to think rather grand thoughts of limits 2/4 and up, but in reality it's all the same game. What I am trying to do is

- pull out some hands where I paused to consider my action and draw out the basic fundamental principles of solid play, quite selfishly, to reinforce the "correct" play (but moreso the correct reasoning).

- point out the importance of thinking about the reasons why lines are taken (or not) based on position and opponents (oh yeah, and cards too). aka. to transcend kool-aid (capri-sun is better anyway). to learn to observe and adjust.

- to point out that these situations are common, and while "basic" at face value, are by no means easy.

In this instance, I lead the flop. I felt as you do (and other did) that check-raising was sure to kill the action. Similarly, were I to spring to life after calling the flop, then thats a neon sign that I have a jack to the opponents I described (had this been a 2+2 table or had I been playing thinking/strong opponents then maybe a call flop/ turn raise would be interpretted other ways). Hopefully my opponents like their hands and we go to war. If not, then as Harrington says, I wasn't making money on the hand anyway. As an added bonus, if i lead and maniac raises, there's a good chance MP 3 bets to "isolate" and even more bets go in.

ps. i like thinking about OOP hands the most, since they require thought - we don't get to see all the action first.

and the only reaosn i'm responding to grunchcan is because he pseudo-called me on my pseudo-brag post. most everyone is for leading the flop (the quality of play in the micros has really improved - 6 months ago 90% of people "slowplay" this). if i wanted to brag i'd post about folding a set on the flop for no reason. flopping quads is so cliche. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

TALLBrad · #18 08-03-2005, 06:21 PM

Based on the input you gave, I'm assuming that one of them will bet this flop. Hopefully UTG+1 and maybe a raise behind so you can trap most of the field with an extra bet when you pull off the Check-Raise.

In my opinion betting this out solid might cause most of the field to drop, with the NUTs (so far) you might as well let somebody else bet so you can pump.

detruncate · #19 08-03-2005, 07:23 PM

In general I agree with what you wrote. Case in point from last week:

UTG is a known LAGtastic overplayer who is very likely to raise the flop. CO, in this case, is more likely TAG than sLAG. There's the similar question of whether we can get him involved in the hand, and he's much more likely to raise a maniac's lead with something like 99 or TT than to 3-bet or call my lead + Maniac's raise.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, CO folds, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 24.50 BB

Results:
Hero has Jd Jc (four of a kind, jacks).
UTG has 8d Ah (two pair, jacks and twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 24.50 BB.

The OP's hand is slightly different. Principally in that the Maniac is involved PF. But I thought an illustration of the aggressive line in action might be interesting.

In the OP's hand, I'd love to get the sLAG involved with the raising and such. The reads imply that he doesn't have any respect for the Maniac and would also often take the opportunity to blow you out of the hand ("rockish", someone he "doesn't respect").

The first obvious question is how suspicious a coldcall would be assuming we check, Maniac bets, sLAG raises. I have to think that anything short of a total nutbar would respect our check/3-bet, so I can't see that being the way to go. We're going to have to spring to life eventually, though. A continuation bet would obviously be least suspicious of all.

I think it comes down to how likely the Maniac is to go to war on the turn or river after we spring to life. If he's the type to take it as an affront and try to run over us anyway, I could see checking and seeing what happens. Best case, we get extra flop bets and it doesn't affect the number of bets we get from Maniac. Someone might also pick up a hand they like enough to get trapped on the turn with. sLAG could also decide to wait for the turn with a PP to try to pop us off.

I'd usually assume that we're going to get more bets on the expensive streets from Maniac when we play it fast, but it's hard to know with these cats. I also think that a PP is a likely holding for the sLAG, so I'm a bit torn -- they might get in a raising war on the flop if we check, allowing us to get more bets in on the turn. It's also possible that sLAG will 3-bet his PP figuring we were autobetting or hoping that Maniac will help us protect our overpair and 3-bet anyway.

I probably lead this flop, but I'm thinking that a check might lead to good things too (and it was my first thought, to be honest). I guess I take the sure action and hope for a pleasant surprise.

*Edit: 18 replies now, huh? I be glacial.

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