A previously "well-respected" MTT cheating team...

[rforman13]

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I'm waiting the response for all the strangers in this post.

Is the following statement accurate?

I have never, ever, given advise or received it while playing a hand in the internet.

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I'll bite.....have people watched me play poker from over my shoulder and given their opinion on what they thought I should do. I am sure this has happened. Interestingly...none of these people over my shoulder have ever known 1/10th of what I know about poker...but nonetheless...I am sure they have given their opinion...

Have I EVER conversed with someone over the phone, AIM, or other communication while they were on the same table or tournament with me. NFWAY.

Two people playing from ONE player is one thing....conversations between players in the same game or tourney that NO ONE else is privy to....well gee...that sounds like cheating to me.

[sirio11]

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Have I EVER conversed with someone over the phone, AIM, or other communication while they were on the same table or tournament with me. NFWAY.

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The question was clear, don't spin it.

We're not talking about friends in the same table.

[rforman13]

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Have I EVER conversed with someone over the phone, AIM, or other communication while they were on the same table or tournament with me. NFWAY.

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The question was clear, don't spin it.

We're not talking about friends in the same table.

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My answer was clear as well...don't spin it or ask closed ended questions where you are just trying to get a yes or no answer that is in itself not enough information.

I mean..."Has anyone ever traded hole cards with you at a table in a live game??" No...probably not, but that tells me nothing about whether or not you partake in unethical behavior.

Look...to be perfectly honest, when I read the Blog..I was clear to notice that they made a point that they do not talk about hands if they are at the same table. If we are to assume that they never cross the line, then you know what...I can probably live with people "discussing" hands. I also happen to be a fellow classmate of Matt Matros and while I did not know him during school...I have corresponded with him about poker since them...and I am would be very comfortable saying that he is the type of guy who would NOT cheat.

However...coming from a B&M background...I am maybe a little but naive about the things that take place online. Sure...I know how possible and easy they are, but really the thought of doing anything remotely suspect makes me very uncomfortable. That includes chatting on the phone with other players in the same tournament...something I have never done, and wouldn't feel comfortable with.

Now...I have participated in forum tourneys (not rgp)...where we have a thread going and there is pretty much carte blanch communication on the thread...hands posted, [censored] talking, revealing hands...etc, but that info is accessible to all participating in the tourney.

I am sure you see where I stand. I am reluctant to call them cheaters...but I dont' think what they are doing is in the spirit of the game.

[rforman13]

Also...I know a lot of you are more online players...so let me give you an idea of where my perspective comes from.

I have played poker for 10 years, about 6 in the middle limits (20/40 - 40/80) and have only really played a lot of online poker in the last 8 months...I know...I know...what an idiot..lol. I actually was on Planet Poker when it came out...and used to run it up big and then piss it away drunk while in college. I had sworn online poker off until giving it another chance recently.

Just think about what you can and cannot do at a live poker table. Sure, online is different, but there are somethings that should not be, despite the fact that they CAN be.

I can tell my friend my hole cards while at the same table if playing online (via phone)...whats to stop me really....but just because I can, doesn't mean I should. Plain and simple.

[gumpzilla]

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Just think about what you can and cannot do at a live poker table. Sure, online is different, but there are somethings that should not be, despite the fact that they CAN be.

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Yet from your earlier posts you use PokerTracker, which almost certainly vastly amplifies your ability to observe the play of other players beyond what you can do in live play. How is this different, to your mind? Does it matter that the aid is mechanical rather than human?

[scott8]

I thought I would get involved because I have nothing to say either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[rforman13]

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Just think about what you can and cannot do at a live poker table. Sure, online is different, but there are somethings that should not be, despite the fact that they CAN be.

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Yet from your earlier posts you use PokerTracker, which almost certainly vastly amplifies your ability to observe the play of other players beyond what you can do in live play. How is this different, to your mind? Does it matter that the aid is mechanical rather than human?

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You know what is funny about this...and maybe its just because I am "behind the curve"...but I do own pokertracker....i bought it because I was getting too lazy to track each online session like I do live in a notebook. Trying to play 2 tables, blah blah...I wanted to know what my BB/hr was...thats about all I know from it after 8 months...that I can see how much I make each month, /100 hands, etc.

Am I missing something by not datamining? I don't really understand the concept anyway...other than obviously digging deeper into my data, my opponents etc.

I know...embarassing. The only thing I know about VPIP is that mine is higher than most [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (lots of short play)...in fact high enough that someone cross posted about me over here....hence my first post here months ago.

I wish I used it for more than just tracking my own play. In all fairness...in B&M, I remember [censored] from years and years back...specific hands, players, even seats players were in. Online, I think the ability to take notes, and track players in a setting where 50k people are on one site, hopping around ever 5 minutes, helps to equalize some of this.

That is a difference that I don't think conflicts with the spirit of the game. I could get the same information if I sat and watched a live table.

[gumpzilla]

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That is a difference that I don't think conflicts with the spirit of the game. I could get the same information if I sat and watched a live table.

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Okay. But PokerTracker makes it so you don't have to do that piece of work. Thus, it potentially removes one more element of skill from the game. If you play stud online, there are programs that record the dead cards for you. You could learn to do this yourself, but it takes substantial effort and practice. Is it okay to use these programs? People debate this in the stud forums.

This doesn't even mention the real power of PokerTracker, as I understand it, which is its ability to observe multiple tables that you aren't playing at and record information about those players. Could you watch four tables simultaneously and keep track of every raise, every time each player entered the pot, and remember every player that all of this was associated with, forever?

[rforman13]

In all fairness...I am probably not as PT dumb as I let on...but I certainly don't get my fair share of mileage out of it.

I still don't think that information that is accessable to all/others and could be gathered from watching the table is really unethical anyway.

I dunno. Personally i doubt they are crossing any lines, but they are surely blurring the line for others who may not be as astute as all of us....and they are putting themselves in a situation which can be questionable...just not worth it, not from guys that goddamn smart. Just have a hand history party after and discuss away....