Strategies against players who don't give a damn.

[sjb]

The odds of your flopped king-high straight getting beaten by a 93o are pretty ridiculous - assuming the 9 you used was on the board (you said you're playing tight), he's got a pair of 9s, something like a hundred to one against improving to a boat or better, maybe a little more to improve to a flush.

If he's staying in when the pot isn't paying him 100:1, let him. All you can really do is ride out the roller coaster - because the pots are all so big, a bad beat is expensive. But the wins are more frequent and just as big.

Don't count the pots you win. Count the chips.

[Gbob]

Exactly!

Here's the flip side of the equation, though. You'll be giving up more pots and losing the effectivness of raising but that's offset by the fact that you'll make more with better cards since he'll be pumping money into the pot no matter what he has.

Example. You hit a flush. Now against a "normal" player you would have to bet small to goad the other player into the pot. He'll see the flush possible and not pay you. Your maniac, on the other hand, doesn't care about that. You can jump up and scream at him "I have the flush you moron!" and he'll still bet into you with nothing.

Had a guy like that last night. I could see the look in his eyes when he would do a double take at the board as I was raking in my chips.

[pzhon]

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Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's horrible advice. We are talking about limit. You can't make up for missed value bets by showing aggression on the river, particularly if you wait for the rare times you have a very strong hand on the river. You don't need anything close to the nuts to be ahead of a nearly random hand. You need to press your advantage, not throw it away.

It's very easy to win against calling stations. Bet for value. Don't bluff. Don't slow-play. Position is not very important against a calling station.

It can be frustrating to play against someone who plays badly this way or any other way, but who gets hit by the deck. However, you reach the long run much more rapidly against really bad opponents than against good ones. Against decent but beatable opponents, you can have downswings lasting weeks. Against really bad players, you shouldn't have many downswings lasting more than a few hours.

Welcome to the forums.

[callydrias]

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...and raising for value can only go so far when you obviously have the nuts and they still hang around.

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You do realize how ridiculous this sounds, don't you?

[johnc]

I implied that the maniac knew I held the best hand at that point (due to my aggression and his reaction) but stuck around with his longshot anyways.

[four2flush]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's horrible advice. We are talking about limit. You can't make up for missed value bets by showing aggression on the river, particularly if you wait for the rare times you have a very strong hand on the river. You don't need anything close to the nuts to be ahead of a nearly random hand. You need to press your advantage, not throw it away.

It's very easy to win against calling stations. Bet for value. Don't bluff. Don't slow-play. Position is not very important against a calling station.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's great advice too....The problem is that this guy would call with any suited cards or Ax. Granted he did get VERY lucky when I pushed the pot and he outdrew me, it just seems that you have to have the nuts against this guy so that you can survive the early rounds and then push him out when you get a decent chip stack to be able to afford the outdraws he makes against you.
I will try a variation of both recommondations and let you know how I make out this week

[memphis57]

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it just seems that you have to have the nuts against this guy so that you can survive the early rounds and then push him out when you get a decent chip stack to be able to afford the outdraws he makes against you.
I will try a variation of both recommondations and let you know how I make out this week

[/ QUOTE ]

I may not understand you right but if I do, I disagree. this sounds to me like a cse that calls for a level head and just straight ahead, ABC poker. Be aggressive when you have a good hand or favorable odds on a draw, back off when you don't, no trickiness required, no need to win early or to "push him off". Be very nice to the guy, when he sucks out tell him "good move, you sure got me there." All you want is an adequate bankroll and enough games agaisnt the guy for the long run to come around. I love this type of opponent.

[k_squared]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's horrible advice. We are talking about limit. You can't make up for missed value bets by showing aggression on the river, particularly if you wait for the rare times you have a very strong hand on the river. You don't need anything close to the nuts to be ahead of a nearly random hand. You need to press your advantage, not throw it away.

It's very easy to win against calling stations. Bet for value. Don't bluff. Don't slow-play. Position is not very important against a calling station.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's great advice too....The problem is that this guy would call with any suited cards or Ax. Granted he did get VERY lucky when I pushed the pot and he outdrew me, it just seems that you have to have the nuts against this guy so that you can survive the early rounds and then push him out when you get a decent chip stack to be able to afford the outdraws he makes against you.
I will try a variation of both recommondations and let you know how I make out this week

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> You are talking about different situations... One is a limit ring game, and the other is a NL tournament.</font>

In a limit game beating the calling station is easy because if they get lucky then you just buy in for more money and keep playing. In a tournament it becomes much more complicated in so far as you don't want to lose the tournament to a guy drawing out on you. I don't think you need to stop being aggressive when you flop THE NUTS because redraws exist, but you certainly don't value bet as aggressively against a calling station when you have middle pair (at least early in the tournament)... Sklansky says something to the effect that if you are one of the better players it is right to give up small edges in a tournament to wait for larger ones to take advantage of! Although he also says that if you aren't one of the best players it is often correct to play those small edges aggessively.

K_squared

[mosch]

against a player like this... value bet, value bet, value bet. If you're statistically ahead of their crap, RAISE.

watch your draws and count your hidden outs. these types of players lead to enormous pots. your "smart" fold might be costing you a fortune once you figure in your crap draws (that backdoor flush draw and inside straight draw look pretty good when it's 20 small bets going into the flop).

be aggressive. sure you won't knock the maniac out, but you'll likely knock out a few of the wimpier weak-sauce players who are trying to be smart.

understand your maniac: is he a maniac pre-flop and then play reasonably post-flop? is he utterly random? stop cursing at his pre-flop play, and figure out what he's doing later in the hand.

don't tilt. a player like this creates huge variance, and often puts the whole table on tilt. be aware that this might happen, and watch for changes in your opponents games. exploit them.

stop thinking that playing better players will fix your game. if you can't beat this guy, then your game has issues. fix them and beat him.

[pzhon]

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In a limit game beating the calling station is easy because if they get lucky then you just buy in for more money and keep playing.


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No, it is easy because you often get to put your money in with a substantial advantage.

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In a tournament it becomes much more complicated in so far as you don't want to lose the tournament to a guy drawing out on you.


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How do you want to lose the tournament?

You lose most tournaments you play. So does everyone else. A calling station will usually get knocked out quickly. It is easier to get their chips than to blind down while the good players get the calling station's chips, then try to win from the good players.

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky says something to the effect that if you are one of the better players it is right to give up small edges in a tournament to wait for larger ones to take advantage of! Although he also says that if you aren't one of the best players it is often correct to play those small edges aggessively.

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Although great players can afford to pass up small advantages, that is not what makes them great, and no one can afford to give up large advantages. When you have a real hand against a calling station, your advantage is large.

Don't try to bluff or semi-bluff a calling station, or you will throw away your advantage just as if you fail to bet your decent hands.