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Old 10-31-2005, 11:13 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
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Default Re: Arabs, Jews, and Cheeseburgers...........

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I'm saying that the LAWS in many Arab/Muslim countries are structured to deny equal civil rights to non-Muslims--and in many cases egregiously so. THAT'S what it boils down to.

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If THAT's what it boils down to, then I'm not sure why you're interested in claiming that 1) Zionism was a movement borne out of trying to escape Arab oppression, as that's not true according to anything I've read and

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I've already said that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm NOT interested in claiming that. I may have misspoken. That wasn't my intended thrust and it's not a central point to my argument.

My overall point was that the creation of Israel was justifiable due in part to various oppressions against the Jews--committed by Europeans, Russians and Arabs. If I'm wrong in thinking it was "fueled" in part by Arab oppressions, as well as European and Russian oppressions, well thanks for the correction, but that is largely besides my point, as I've already stated. The state of Israel was a justifiable creation in part due to all of those oppressions. That's my point. Clearer at last, I hope?

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2) neither is true that all Arab countries discriminate against Jews, or that Israel necessarily respects human rights more than Arab countries; surely, they do respect human rights more than some Arab countries - and in my estimation, they respect human rights less than some Arab countries. The world isn't easily explained through broad generalizations or over-simplifications. The world is a complicated place. I think you should respect some of that complexity.

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It wasn't intended as an absolute or blanket statement without any exceptions, but it is overwhelmingly true in aggregate that the laws in many or most Arab/Muslim countries do not grant equal legal status to non-Muslims. That's very serious. Not only are things like non-Muslim religious fredoms curtailed, but the legal codes contain provisions for greater punishments to be meted out to non-Miuslims for civil and criminal infractions of many kinds; and in some cases do not punish Muslims for crimes against infidels, to nearly the extent that crimes by infidels committed against Muslims are punished. Muslim witenesses in court are LEGALLLY accorded more weight than non-Muslim witnesses. Etc. It's really scary stuff if you delve into it.

Contrast this to Israel, where Arabs possess civil rights approximately in line with first-world standards. Apparently you don't know these things to be true and therefore find the statement offensive somehow. But it's much more true than you would guess. Check out www.hrw.org if you don't mind doing some serious on-site searching. Human Rights Watch is a valuable resource, and is probably where I first found the legal codes of various Middle Eastern countries, which I posted previously.
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