Getting Raised on the Turn...

fizzleboink · #1 08-09-2005, 11:59 AM

...is something I've been struggling with. I've taken a stab at 2/4 on party and have so far broken even over 2k hands. But I'm not here to whine about that. The recurring theme over those 2k hands is how I handle being raised on the turn. The first 1k had me run really well, being raised on the turn quite rarely. The second 1k had me being raised on the turn with a much higher frequency, and my BB/100 plummets.

As you probably know, being raised on the turn usually means 2-pair or better. The thing is I usually have something like TPGK when this occurs. Here's a hypothetical example (assume these are typical 2/4 party players):

Pre-flop: I have KQ in the CO, 10 handed.
UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, I raise, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8.5 SB) Q95r (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, I bet, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8r (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, I bet, BB folds, MP3 raises, I...

HATE these. The pot size is now 8 BB, and I will probably have to call a bet on the river as well. So I'm getting odds of 4.5:1 to call down. I would say I'm behind about 90% of the time and still ahead 10% of the time.

Of that 90% of the time while behind I think I'm drawing dead 10% of the time to a straight, 60% of the time he has 2-pair, and 20% of the time he'll have a set. I've got 2 outs to trips, and 8 or 9 outs (some hidden) to hit 2-pair.

So let's see, .1(0) + .2(2) + .6(8) = 5.2 outs
I should probably see the turn since I have 8:1 immediate odds, 9:1 implied, there's a small chance I could still be ahead, and folding here could make people take more shots at me later.

So I call, river bricks.

MP3 bets, I...

call? now I'm getting 10:1 to see a showdown. I only need to be good here 9% of the time to make this profitable. SSHE advocates calling I believe because people will apparantly bluff more than 10% of the time, especially on the internet.

MP3 shows me two pair, and I curse and think I just wasted 2 BB's I could have saved.

Am I thinking about this the right way? How do you guys handle being raised on the turn with top pair? I'll usually fold if I have a shitty kicker and the pot isn't too big, but it depends.

That turn card didn't help many draws. What if the board was two-tone and the turn made a flush possible? What if an over-card hit? I guess what I'm saying is, when the turn has just helped more draws, how does it affect your decision? I mean, there's a bigger chance you're behind now, but they're also good bluff cards too.

Do you guys call down most of the time? Fold the river UI? Fold right there? What conditions change your actions? What if it wasn't a C/R because you were OOP?

I feel so lost when this happens.