Frustration with 3-6-12 - Move Up? - ?s about Clark's Thread

[bvaughn]

After another losing session at the Grand in Kinder playing 3-6-12, I am pretty frustrated with my game and with the game in general. I am pretty new to poker being that I was introduced to hold 'em about 2 years ago, but I didn't start trying to really learn hold 'em (by studying books, reading websites, etc.) until nearly a year ago. I am by far an expert, but when I play I can recognize my mistakes and the many mistakes of others (at least what I think are mistakes, and I may be wrong).

My results in "live" poker in the 3-6-12 structure are 129 hours, $286 up. This game is a $1, $3 blind game, 10% rake to max $4 with $1 jackpot drop. I realize that 129 hours is definitely not enough for an accurate statistical picture, but enough for me to realize that I am basically a break-even player at this 3-6-12 structure. My frustration comes from the fact that I have posted losing sessions for 7 of my last 8 sessions.

As I am playing, I am always the tightest player at the table (by far usually), and I am one of the only players at the table who will raise preflop with hands other than AA or KK. I do adjust when I raise according to position and # of players in the pot...for example, I don't raise with AQo in late position with 5-6 players already in, although I would raise with AQs in the same situation. I would raise AQo first in from early position to limit the field, although a preflop raise seems to attracts the gamblers to the pot because they know it will be a big pot.

As I sit and fold hand after hand preflop, I observe who can play and who seems to play poorly (which is nearly everyone). Hand after hand is won by hands like 72s (from early position cold-calling a raise), 10/4o (from middle position cold-calling a raise), and lots of "any two suited" hands making baby flushes and one card straights.

Here is one example from last night: I open raise UTG with A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . UTG+1 reraises to $9. This is very good because $9 might actually run some people off. SB calls $8 as I am announcing I am capping it at $12. BB folds. I cap, UTG+1 calls, SB calls. I could've turned my cards face up preflop, and I am positive the action would have been the same. Flop comes K high rainbow, SB bets, I raise, UTG+1 folds, SB calls. Turn is another K. SB checks, I bet $6, SB calls. River is a rag, SB checks, I bet $12(should've checked behind), SB calls and shows K9o for the turned set of Kings. I don't question his play post flop (except he should've check-raised me on the turn or the river), but calling $8 from the SB with K9o is questionable, IMO. His logic was that K9o could make a straight, and if it was K8o he would not have called. I'm supposed to love these kinds of jokers in my game, right? Sometimes, I just can't beat the cards.

Most of the "regulars" see 60-80% of the flops, raised or not...most pots are contested 6-7 ways preflop and 2-4 ways at showdown. By most standards, this sounds like a very juicy game with tons of very loose, passive, calling station type players...this should be beatable, right? The problem I seem to be having is that I must win a large percentage of the few hands I play to post a win, and because of the large # of players contesting each pot, you have to have a fairly big hand to win the pot...top pair usually just doesn't cut it.

So in my frustration, I'm am trying to figure out ways to either fix my game or possibly move up to 10-20 which is spread on Saturdays. They sometimes, very rarely, spread 6-12 which would be a more preferable limit for me at this time, but it is such a rare occurence that I might have to go straight to 10-20. I have a substantial bonus check coming in the next week or two, and I was thinking of taking part of it and "taking my shot". But, shouldn't I first be beating the 3-6-12 game first to consider moving up to 10-20?

Here's my logic, however flawed it may be. I have been fairly successful online at Paradise up to $2/$4, which plays much tighter and much more aggressive than the 3-6-12 live game. I have adapted my game to be successful at 2/4 online, but I can't say that I am "killing it" yet. I can usually put people on hands based strictly on betting actions, and my intuition usually proves correct. At 3-6-12, where people play nearly any two cards, I never know precisely where I am at because I have a hard time putting others on hands...also, my opponents passivity at 3-6-12 makes it even harder. Someone is just as likely to check-call an Ace-high straight as they are bottom pair. Along with online poker, I recently made a trip to Vegas and successfully played 4-8 at Bellagio and 6-12 at Mirage. I returned a winner after 3 sessions in Vegas playing in a tigher, more aggressive game. Obviously, 3 sessions is not much to analyze, but the cards were not exactly running over me. I truly felt like I was playing good poker and beating my opponents. I was comfortable at the table, and having a lot of fun. I am thinking that the 10-20 game in Louisiana will tend to play more like the low-limit online games and the low-limit Vegas games. If I was going to take a shot after my bonus check comes in, how much money should I take for a 6-10 hour Saturday session at 10-20?

Lastly, Clarkmeister's thread about the Monte Carlo game got me to thinking that some of these guys who have been playing 3-6-12 for years are playing closer to correct for this limit structure than I am. Since the initial bet preflop and flop is 1/4 of a big blind (although the river can be 6 or 12), that I should be seeing A LOT more flops that I am seeing. I already play looser than I do online, but I still think I might be too tight. I do think that most of the players play very poorly post-flop as I see many bottom-pair, middle-pair call downs at the river. So, if I think I can make better decisions post-flop than my opponents, I should really loosen up, right? How low can I go in early position if I think that the chance of getting raised is 10%? How low can I go in late position with no raise and a 1-5% chance of being raised from the blinds? I am guessing that in late position, I can play nearly any two suited than can make a straight - i.e. 96s, 47s, 10/6s - and any two medium or better unsuited connectors - 56o or better? Early, I might limit my plays to medium suited connectors and 9/10o or better? I realize that my variance will increase significantly, and it is already pretty high with my best win being $392/3.5 hours and my biggest loss being -$143/3.5 hours.

I welcome any advice on moving up to 10-20 and taking a shot, as well as any advice on loosening way up on the 3-6-12 game. I apologize that this is so long.