JJ folded on the turn. Too tight?

[PhilipJ]

This is my first time posting hands here. Thanks for the comments in advance.

Folded 2 JJ hands tonight. I am not sure if they were correct.

First one
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

(I didn't raise preflop because I am still sticking to Hilger's starting hands chart. I guess I should've raised in this situation.)

Flop: (7 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Button calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

I was afraid I was already beat on the turn by a straight.

Second one:
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds.

River: (7 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

In this hand, the pot odds on the turn wasn't that good and I just had a middle pair. SB bets out and I thought he might have hit 2 pairs.

[Piiop]

Uh, you are way too weak tight. Why are you not raising JJ preflop???? It's only the 4th best hand you could ever get!!

Hand 1 - RAISE PREFLOP. Flop raise is good. Turn fold is BAD. You should NOT fold here. I would raise again and call down if he 3-bets.

Hand 2 - Raise preflop!!! Since you didn't raise preflop, you're now in a bad spot. If you give UTG+1 credit for a K you should've folded the flop. The turn fold is good, except the whole hand would play differently if you raised preflop.

[detruncate]

Welcome. You really need to raise JJ pre-flop. You're giving up way too much when you limp. It also tends to make the hand harder to play post-flop.

In hand 1, I'd raise the turn and call down from there if you're 3-bet.

In hand 2, calling doesn't get you anywhere. If you're behind to the K, you don't have the odds to chase your set. However, you shouldn't be ready to assume that just yet. This is one of those raise or fold situations. You make the field call 2 bets cold if they want to keep playing, and might get control of the action and/or a bit more information about how much villain likes his hand. You'll probably also find yourself ahead here more often than you'd think.

[Ray Of Light]

Welcome to the boards! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hand One

Raise preflop. AA down to JJ I am capping the pot. Hell, I'm raising with TT down to 88 in a loose passive game (depending on position and table type), so I am definantly going to cap it preflop with JJ... who is this Hilger guy??

Flop play is good in my opinion.

'I was afraid I was already beat on the turn by a straight...' If someone was drawing to the straight then 33% of the time you would be beat. But you will win the other 66% of the time if you hold the best hand, and they are still looking to improve, so don't fold your hand here at all!

In fact if you are really that worried, I would raise the turn. If you get re-raised, you could consider yourself beat and instead play your hand based on the implied odds that you have that you'll improve. And if you are not beat, a turn raise would get you some extra bets into the pot.


Hand Two

You play about 22% of your dealt hands, and less than half of those see it to the river, so when you get a good hand you have to make the most of it.

Cap J J preflop, grit your teeth and put on your best poker face against any possible overcards that may fall...

I would simply raise or fold this flop. Either you raise, get the hand heads up, and if you aren't reraised back, then assume that UTG+1 isn't as strong as he is representing and lead all the way to the river. Or you fold.

You achieve nothing by calling the flop here. You don't know if you are beat, and you don't have the odds to chase your two outer, since you probably won't have top two pair if the board pairs...

The turn fold here was a good laydown though... but thats just my guess... what did they have?

[Sent]

If you are sticking to Hilger's charts and are just starting out I think that is fine. 2+2 advice around here is a little more aggressive than the charts and you will eventually learn to be more aggressive. Raise with JJ [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-Sent

[The13atman]

Everyone has basically said everything that needs to said about Hand 1, so I'll just comment on Hand 2. One of the reasons you raise preflop with a hand like JJ is to chase out anyone with 1 overcard and a poor kicker (for example K6 or A7). This way, if no one 3-bets preflop, when a K hits on the flop, you can bet/raise with less fear of someone holding a K, and even if someone does, since you raised preflop they may make you for KK, AK, KQ, etc. and fold assuming you have them outkicked.

[PhilipJ]

Thanks for the comments everyone. Especially the comments on the value of raising. I guess I will reread the raise chapter in Hilger's book and get more hands under my belt. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Joe Tall]

Frist burn Hilger's book.

Second raise and re-raise JJ in any position; it is the 4th best hand in Hold'em.

Third calling down on later streets with overpairs will rarely be a mistake in sizeable pots.

Hand#1
Raise preflop, call down.
Hand#2
Raise preflop, raise the flop.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[papawawa]

Your play doesn't make sense at all. Why would you fold on the turn to a rag that you think may have given someone a straight?? This is incredibly weak. You should be raising until someone shows a little strength. Not to mention that had you raise preflop, MP2 probably would've folded.
Hand 2 - again, what is scary about the 8??? WHY WOULD YOU CALL THE FLOP BET&lt; AND NOT THE TURN? If someone has a king you're beat whether or not someone else pairs an 8!!

[mchilger]

I receive a lot of questions about how to play JJ and why I recommend limping from early position in the starting hand charts in my book. There is a very good argument for raising but just limping does several things for beginning players.

Realize first that the starting hand charts in my book are intended for beginning to intermediate players. The goal is to reduce volatility in earnings (standard deviations) while putting players in profitable situations where they can avoid tough decisions. Most beginners have a limited bankroll and by limping this will help them avoid large swings.

Also, beginning players tend to make mistakes with this hand when an A, K, or Q flops which is another reason for beginning players to limp. When someone recommends Raise to a beginning player, they have a tendency to play the hands too strongly after the flop.

Nevertheless, I also state some exceptions in the text to the starting hand charts. Page 81 says...You can raise with JJ if the game is rather tight; otherwise, it is better to just call in a loose game.

Even beginners should raise from early position in tight games but in loose games you are generally aiming to hit a set. As far as profit expection, raising or limping in loose games is quite close but limping minimizes standard deviation which I believe is helpful for beginning players.

Once players start to gain more experience so that they know better what to do after the flop then you should start raising more often with JJ.

Hope that helps explain a little more the methodology behind the charts.

Best regards, Matthew