No quads for me, ruling question

TheGrifter · #1 06-22-2004, 09:37 AM

Foxwoods 1-2 NL.

During the deal I am dealt the 8h and my 2nd card is flipped by the dealer and revealed as the 8d. I ask to keep the card, dealer says no and mucks it. Replacement is the 10c.

I am UTG and fold 6 players stay in. Board comes Kc Jc 8s. EP bets 15, 4 call. Turn is 8c. Checked to MP who bets 35, call, raise to 70, call, call. River is another club. EP moves in for about 150, fold, call. They both have flushes, one made on the turn the other on the river.

It was a bit frustrating to lose out on this 600 dollar pot because of a dealer error. Also, what if you look down at your first card and it's an ace and the dealer flips another ace. Had I called the floor would I have been able to keep the card?

cardcounter0 · #2 06-22-2004, 09:40 AM

No.

(and if the flop had come AKQ, you wouldn't be complaining about the dealer messing up your pocket 8s)

TheGrifter · #3 06-22-2004, 09:46 AM

That's beside the point. I was SUPPOSED to have pocket 8's when the board would have quadded me up. That was how the deck was aligned. Your commentary is off base.

BigBaitsim (milo) · #4 06-22-2004, 09:54 AM

This happens at the lodge game where I play, and some of the guys will say they want to keep their card, and will be allowed to do so. I never mind, because it gives me information about their hands, but it seems there must be a rule about this somewhere.

Cohiba Al · #5 06-22-2004, 10:09 AM

Bad luck there, Grifter.

If the dealer flips it face up while dealing, the card is dead and gets replaced. If YOU flipped it up with fumble-fingers, then you can keep it. Foxwoods rules. This is to protect the other players from someone getting lucky and being able to choose whether or not to take a new card (bad card, draw one... good card keep).

Nobody is "supposed" to get dealt anything. Nobody is "supposed" to win with pocket aces or AKs. Nobody is "supposed" to have boats not cracked by a bigger boat. But it happens, and that feeling of entitlement is what leads to player frustration and bad-beat stories. Sorry you missed out on a nice pot with quads. Keep playing strong and you'll earn that missed pot back in no time I am sure.

cardcounter0 · #6 06-22-2004, 10:11 AM

Hey, I just told you the rules. Sorry if they are in conflict with your sacred deck-alignment theories.

Besides, the pot was large because the other players were betting their flushes more confidently, since an 8 had already been exposed and burned, they weren't as worried about the paired 8 board.

So woulda, coulda, shoulda all night long. Do you get upset when you fold 72o only to see a 772 flop?

TheGrifter · #7 06-22-2004, 10:15 AM

Thanks for the reply, the rule makes sense when you consider that if it is a deuce everyone would always take another card and if it was an Ace nobody would.

I disagree somewhat with your second assessment. When you pay for a seat it is determined by the shuffle what cards you will get and what the board will be. That is why if a player is missed as a hand is dealt it is a misdeal, they don't just give you two off the top of the deck.

Certainly a person is no more likely to be dealt a big hand in one seat or the next, but once the shuffle is complete the hand you are going to have has been determined. Of course it's sour grapes on missing out on the quads, I had a winning session anyway and I didn't give the dealer a hard time about it. However, you are "entitled" to the hand as dictated by the shuffle and most of the rules exist to protect that right.

Guess I should've said I flipped it myself. :-)

TheGrifter · #8 06-22-2004, 10:19 AM

You've so completely missed the point that it's barely worth it to continue a discussion on it but suffice it to say that there is a difference between choosing to fold the hand you receive and not receiving the hand you were supposed to. You said no and made a snide comment instead of explaining the rule as another poster did. Next time, feel free to skip right over my posts. Thanks, good day.

P.S. - The players were betting their flushes so confidently on a paired board because this was the foxwoods 1/2 NL on a weekend, no other reason necessary.

cardcounter0 · #9 06-22-2004, 10:33 AM

I think the sooner you realize the cards are RANDOM and you are not "SUPPOSED" to get any hand, the better off you will be.

#1 - the dealer doesn't mess up and you don't get 8s
#2 - the dealer doesn't mess up and you get 8s and they get crushed.
#3 - the dealer messes up, but you wouldn't have 8s anyways
#4 - the dealer messes up, you would have had 8s and they would have gotten crushed.
#5 - the dealer messes up, you would have had 8s and you would have had quads.

It just so happens that situation #5 happened to you, but situations #1 thru #4 are just as likely and you wouldn't still be crying about it.

Geeez, what do you do when you get a bad beat?

BigBaitsim (milo) · #10 06-22-2004, 11:02 AM

Card distribution is random. It would matter not at all if the dealer just started chucking out cards randomly until everyone had two cards (or gave everyone two cards at a time). The game would be the same. In the end, play an infinite number of hands and you will get quads exactly the right number of times.