NLHE tournament strategy

[tim.daughters]

I would like other players' opinions on how to play a situation that came up in an online tournament. This was a multi-table NLHE tournament. This was about 1 hour and 20 minutes into the tournament. Blinds were 200/400 and there was an ante of 25. There were probably about 150 players left and the last 50 players would be in the money.

I was in middle position and had about 7,000 in chips (well above average) holding 88. A player in early position went all in for 1,700. Considering that it would cost that player almost half his stack to play through the blinds, I didn't expect that he needed much to make that play. I thought calling with my big stack and decent hand seemed reasonable. A third player 2 off the button with 6,300 in chips also called. Everyone else folded.

The flop came 7c 5d 3d. Not too threatening. I figured I could easily have the best hand, but that proper tournament strategy was to check this hand down giving two shots at beating the all-in player. Seat 8 had other ideas and went all in. I still had a pretty good stack to play with, so I folded. I was very disappointed to see seat 8 turn up 6c 6d. I was sick to my stomach to see 8h on the turn. That gave seat 8 an outside straight draw, but it didn't hit.

I guess a lot of things could have happened on this hand, but I sure hated to see the pot go to seat 8. (Sorry, I completely forgot about the all-in player. He had As Js.) I could have more than doubled my already bigger than average stack had I called the all-in bet. I still don't think that was the right play. I have to take my hat off to seat 8 for moving in with a big stack holding only an under pair, a gut shot, and a back-door flush draw.

Here are my thoughts on what I could have done differently:

1. Fold in the first place. There were several players to act behind me, and I need to protect my stack considering my chip position. I still like my call.

2. Reraise before the flop. That makes it harder for others to call, but my hand isn't that great. I definitely don't like this choice.

3. Move in after the flop. Maybe that's not too bad. What hands do I fear?
a. An over pair, but wouldn't seat 8 reraise with that before the flop?
b. A flush draw, but my move would make it hard for him to call all-in. I guess I don't fear that a bit.
c. Two pair. Is he really going to overcall with 75 73 or 35? Don't count on it.
d. A made straight. Again, is he going to call before the flop with 46?

4. Check and call after the flop. I still don't like that.

Perhaps I have answered my own question. What do the rest of you think? How about the idea that we ought to check it down to the river to give two shots at the all-in player? Maybe that is just a final table or near the money strategy.

[Bozeman]

"I figured I could easily have the best hand, but that proper tournament strategy was to check this hand down giving two shots at beating the all-in player."

In many cases, including this one, this is not correct strategy.

I would probably raise preflop if I was playing, but might call and push on the flop.

Craig

[sdplayerb]

I reraise the minimum, i want it headsup, and this will scare away big hands.
Knocking a player out is really only valuable to you when near the bubble, or at the last table. With 150 left, don't worry about it.

The other player did the right thing pushing in. I would have put you on overcards (AK-AJ) and want you gone as you have too any outs.
Since you flat called, I would have pushed in.
I was in a similar situation in a tourney where I flat called with TT (and wish I had RR). A flop similar to yours came, and I pushed in. He called with 66 actually, and I doubled up. But I still didn't want him around.

You want to play headsup as much as possible, especially when somebody is allin.

[SnowBreeze]

you have to remember that there are well over 5000 chips out there in that pot. Your first priority must be your own interest so I don't believe checking to the river is the right strategy here. The chances are the turn is a card over your 8's and it might hit your oponnent. How funny is seeing those 5000 chips going his way when they were yours 10 seconds ago?

[Scooterdoo]

I want to be heads-up so I would have raised a bit preflop, say making it about $2,500 so that anyone behind me knew that I liked my hand. Also, if anyone behind me had KK or AA they probably would raise me all-in so at least I would know where I stand against the monster hands. The hands that you need to be scared of are pairs a bit over yours but less than KK. With the flop that you got it's tricky. One side of me says go all-in to get overcards to fold. On the otherhand I think it is less likely that you are facing overcards than an overpair given that you were in first preflop so I would be worried about overpairs which you would not likely scare out (at least not JJ, QQ, etc.). So perhaps the best thing here would be a min or 2xmin bet to at least let overcards, lower pairs or slightly higher pairs know that you like your hand. Of course you would be giving them what they perceive to be +EV calls so there is no great answer here that will work for all cases.

[Bluff1]

That’s a pretty tough spot to be in. With 88 I probably fold if the players behind me are overly aggressive this is the common case in these trnys. If you’re lucky enough to be at a somewhere normal type table I might reraise to try to get heads up. But usually I would fold the 88 here because I would fear a reraise from the back and wouldn't want to donate money to the pot. So I guess what I’m really saying here is I fold this hand 9 times out of 10.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

You were definitely thinking along the right lines when you mentioned that the original raiser could have a lot of hands, given his tenuous position with respect to stack size and the blinds. Therefore, I think you are correct to play your 88.

However, I don't think you should call here. You do NOT want to get people with overcards to overcall. And you do NOT want to inspire somebody with a mediocre hand like AJ to raise to knock you out of the pot (because it will work if their stack is big enough).

I say just raise all-in. If you raise less, you are going to be potstuck anyway when one of those smaller stacks goes all-in. I mean, if you make it T3400, you'll have to call for T2000 more, especially since the raiser is going to have AK at least some of the time. Heck, even if they show you an overpair, you'll either be getting the right odds, or close to it. So, once you factor in the times they DON'T have an overpair, you absoluately will have to call anyway.

So, raise all-in yourself, and make sure that they fold their AJ, KQ, and hopefully even AQ hands. Plus, they might fold AK and 99 or even TT.

As for the call, once you make that call, you need to raise out the third player when undercards flop. Don't let them draw to their likely AQ type hand for free.

The concept of knocking out players is completely irrelevant this far from the money. Even in or near the money, it's not as crucial as some people seem to believe. Your cash EV is all that matters to you. At this point in time, cash EV and chip EV are identical. Even in or near the money, they are usually VERY closely correlated.

There are times when you should make a play that is slightly inferior in terms of chip EV, because it has got higher cash EV than the alternate play. However, make sure you don't give up too much chip EV, or you'll find you're also giving up cash EV.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[CrisBrown]

Hi tim,

[ QUOTE ]
The flop came 7c 5d 3d. Not too threatening. I figured I could easily have the best hand, but that proper tournament strategy was to check this hand down giving two shots at beating the all-in player. Seat 8 had other ideas and went all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see people do this all the time, and for the life of me, I can't see the logic in it. If you think you have the best hand at the flop in a three-way pot with one player all-in, why not raise to isolate the all-in? Let the other live player wonder what YOU have, rather than vice-versa.

If I'm missing some important element of tournament strategy (and it's possible that I am) please tell me. But I've more than once been criticized for raising someone out of this situation "because there was no side pot," etc. So okay ... there's no side pot, but there is a main pot, and I want those chips! Having one less player to tangle with makes it incrementally more likely that I'll get them.

Someone please educate me?

Cris

[DrPhysic]

I am making this post not to disagree with the previous posters on this thread, all of whom I have read, but to offer an opinion using the logic of my wee little mind. If of value, fine. If not, Greg and the others will shoot me down as usual, which is exactly what I want if appropriate.

I try to play pretty tight. In a normal situation after an opening raise, that list gets tighter. 88 is not on the list at that time. This originates from instruction I have received many times on this forum that "You just don't blow a tournament on a 50/50 shot." And of all the hands that the initial raiser would usually have, 88 is somewhere near that. Therefore, I normally fold.

Your situation is a little different because the EP raiser with the short stack has a little longer list of opening hands, all of the additional ones being weaker.

I see 88 as a reverse implied odds hand. You may be the hand leader NOW, but you sure don't want anybody drawing against it. Therefore call is not an option. It lets the guy who is going to outdraw you into the game.

Depending on your read of the strength of the early raiser, you either FOLD, or PUSH. (anything less than push doesn't keep the 6300 stack out of the game) You don't have any other options that give you a +EV for the hand.

Now, you are in MP. I will assume there are 6 players behind you including the blinds. The odds of AA is 1/221. The odds of one of them holding AA, KK, or QQ is 3/221. And there are 6 opportunities for that to happen. Therefore, you have about a 1/12 shot that the players behind you can have a big enough hand to overcall your push, and you are probably out if it happens. This decreases your overall odds for the hand slightly.

From MP I fold it.

From the button or later with no other callers, I push if I like the read on the original raiser.

Doc

[ironman007]

I agree with the Newbe, there is no need to gamble with 88 in this spot, since I think it's safe to assume your a coin flip at best with this hand in this position and you could be a big dog with this hand. isolating the raiser might not work if someone behind you has a big hand. I don't call this fold tight/loose I call it the wrong risk/reward at this time.